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Analysis Compendium and Tiering Plans
#21
(09-29-2016, 10:34 PM)Lord Windos Wrote:
(09-29-2016, 10:09 PM)Cataclyptic Wrote:
(09-29-2016, 09:32 PM)Matt Wrote: I agree that we should be cautious about banning before the actual meta even develops, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't if a situation arises that calls for it. It's a relief to see that nobody thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned (anyone who thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned frankly has a poor grasp of competitive Pokemon - that's okay, we were all noobs once, myself included), but Nucleon should absolutely be quickbanned - that is, banned immediately without a suspect test. I already talked about why Nucleon is by far beyond anything we've ever seen in the Nucleon analysis thread, but a couple people here summarized it nicely by noting that it destroys the vast majority of the meta and that you'd have to run very specific countermeasures to it, harshly limiting any sort of diversity - overcentralization.

Whenever a new generation comes out, there are quickbans of some new Pokemon before the meta even exists yet. When Gen 6 came out, Xerneas and Yveltal were banned from OU straight from the beginning, even though nobody had the opportunity to use them in the new generation's meta. That's because it's plainly obvious that both of them are completely busted in OU. What's the point in having them around? We'd just have a terrible meta where those two dominate the meta and everything that loses to either of them becomes unviable. Nucleon is no different. It's so obviously broken that we might as well save ourselves a month (or however long its suspect will last) of having a terrible Nucleon-meta and just ban it straight away. Not quickbanning Nucleon is like not quickbanning Deoxys-Attack from NU.

At the moment, Nucleon is the only Pokemon that needs quickbanning. Obviously there are others that should be suspected in the future, but Nucleon is by far the most powerful Pokemon in existence and has no place in any competitive environment. Sure, this is all based on "theory" but come on. It's really not even up for debate.

I'd like to debate. Sticky web and any sort of priority destroys Nucleon, without its speed its nothing. Specially defensive Lanthan and Metalynx can come in on Hyper Voice and OHKO it. It's weak to stealth rocks and vulnerable to every entry hazard. 

Nucleon HAS to run a choice scarf, otherwise It'll just be outsped and defeated, hence why M-Metalynx and Lanthan are safe switch ins, Hyper Voice is a 3HKO for the most part. Additionally Nucleon can't switch on anything with priority, so Inflagetah, Archilles, Tubareel and other priority users function as checks if they can get in. 

The combination of these factors may prove too overwhelming for the radioactive fox and it may yet stay. Or maybe not and it'll go. We need more battles to figure it out- even in ORAS OU it took them two weeks to ban Mega Salamence, I say we give Nucleon two weeks of solid battling as the same courtesy.

See, I don't think you quite grasp how powerful a Nuclear Hyper Voice really is. Metalynx, at best, can only survive two hits before its down for the count, and since its speed is absolutely atrocious (its even lower that Beliaddon's!), it will die before it can do anything. Lanthan might have a better chance of standing up to the nuclear demon, but why would Nucleon stay out and face it in the first place?

As a matter of fact, why would it stay out against any of its counters or checks? If Lanthan, Tracton, Garaweal, Hazma, Inflageth, Yatagaryu etc. were to switch in after its taken down one of their team members, its trainer would just return it and send out an appropriate counter to the pokemon you sent out. They can then bide their time until the checks are dealt with, then send out Nucleon to mop up the rest.

Entry hazards can whittle in down, especially if you combine Spikes and Stealth rocks, but getting those up will be a problem, as Anti-leads such as Antarki, Dramsama (pre nerf), Taunt Laissure, and Prankster Whimsicott straight up prevent that from happening. Toxic can put it on a timer, but good luck landing it on it before it stomps on the status user. Paralysis would be a problem, but the 'mon that have a guaranteed way of applying it all quickly fall before its nuclear might, unless they are running a Focus Sash. Which leads to another problem: if a person doesn't want to run a rigid team comp, or use mediocre mons, they have to waste an item slot on a status/Trick Room/Wonder Room user just to get the chance to proc a status. Given how prevalent hazard users are without a Rapid Spinners or a Defoger about, those Sashes have a very high chance of becoming useless in the long run. That will leave you back at square one against an almost uncounterable threat.

 Sticky Web could hobble the terror, but if the opponent runs SW as well, then your back at square one. If a Luxelong has time to set up a Wonder Room, or a Trick Room with Dramsama, those moves could counter it, but they could also very well cripple you if your don't build you team to accommodate that possibily. Which lead to adopting another rigid comp just to find a way to beat Nucleon.

While I am in support of a brief  trail run of it, I would not be against a quick ban of it from the fledgling OU. That thing is just too strong, with only checks to hold it back from sweeping everything in sight.
I can't agree more when it comes to Nucleon.  There is no reasonable answer to it in theory.  When you have to always build every team around facing that one pokemon that destroys everything, and resort to gimmicks and entire teams based around ATTEMPTING to try and deal with it, that's when it's obvious that the pokemon in question is a problem.  Forget focus sashes, Hafli berries, Inflagetah, Soundproof Paraboom, Gararewl, Hazma...most all of it is incredibly niche and none of it is guaranteed to work, and you can't switch any of them in directly for fear of getting annihilated or wasting the item your strat depends on.  Surprise Hafli berries on high sp def, single typed mons like Sylveon (not much of a surprise if it becomes common) and Shadow Tag Chainite are probably about the only ways to 'reliably' take out a Nucleon before it's killed more than 1 of your pokemon, and those aren't even guaranteed to work if your opponent sees them coming (which they will because so little can actually deal with Nucleon that when something can, it's usually incredibly obvious).

Inflagetah and Yatagaryu have the issue as well, but not to the degree Nucleon has it.  Some other pokemon can also be argued for having such a case as well, though they aren't nearly as prominent.    At least Inflagetah and Yata have at least one counter (usually only when they lack certain moves though, which can also be unhealthy for the metagame).  Nucleon has none, and can only be checked.  That's the easiest sign that the pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame: there aren't a large number of ways, if any, that can be used to reasonably deal with it before it's done massive damage.

I'm all for letting it stay in the meta a short while as well at first, but it will disappear extremely quickly.  It's way too strong for a competitive meta of most any kind.  The Nuclear type itself is incredibly dangerous, but Nucleon amped it up to 12 on a scale of 10.  If the Nuclear type wasn't taken care of as a whole, next on the chopping block would probably be...Nuclear (Mega) Baariette, as Nuclear Slash is terrifying coming from that thing, and it gets Crunch, Knock Off, and HJK (though it's non-STAB) to deal with any steel or Nuclear mons that come in and think they can try to wall it.
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#22
(09-29-2016, 10:34 PM)Lord Windos Wrote:
(09-29-2016, 10:09 PM)Cataclyptic Wrote:
(09-29-2016, 09:32 PM)Matt Wrote: I agree that we should be cautious about banning before the actual meta even develops, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't if a situation arises that calls for it. It's a relief to see that nobody thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned (anyone who thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned frankly has a poor grasp of competitive Pokemon - that's okay, we were all noobs once, myself included), but Nucleon should absolutely be quickbanned - that is, banned immediately without a suspect test. I already talked about why Nucleon is by far beyond anything we've ever seen in the Nucleon analysis thread, but a couple people here summarized it nicely by noting that it destroys the vast majority of the meta and that you'd have to run very specific countermeasures to it, harshly limiting any sort of diversity - overcentralization.

Whenever a new generation comes out, there are quickbans of some new Pokemon before the meta even exists yet. When Gen 6 came out, Xerneas and Yveltal were banned from OU straight from the beginning, even though nobody had the opportunity to use them in the new generation's meta. That's because it's plainly obvious that both of them are completely busted in OU. What's the point in having them around? We'd just have a terrible meta where those two dominate the meta and everything that loses to either of them becomes unviable. Nucleon is no different. It's so obviously broken that we might as well save ourselves a month (or however long its suspect will last) of having a terrible Nucleon-meta and just ban it straight away. Not quickbanning Nucleon is like not quickbanning Deoxys-Attack from NU.

At the moment, Nucleon is the only Pokemon that needs quickbanning. Obviously there are others that should be suspected in the future, but Nucleon is by far the most powerful Pokemon in existence and has no place in any competitive environment. Sure, this is all based on "theory" but come on. It's really not even up for debate.

I'd like to debate. Sticky web and any sort of priority destroys Nucleon, without its speed its nothing. Specially defensive Lanthan and Metalynx can come in on Hyper Voice and OHKO it. It's weak to stealth rocks and vulnerable to every entry hazard. 

Nucleon HAS to run a choice scarf, otherwise It'll just be outsped and defeated, hence why M-Metalynx and Lanthan are safe switch ins, Hyper Voice is a 3HKO for the most part. Additionally Nucleon can't switch on anything with priority, so Inflagetah, Archilles, Tubareel and other priority users function as checks if they can get in. 

The combination of these factors may prove too overwhelming for the radioactive fox and it may yet stay. Or maybe not and it'll go. We need more battles to figure it out- even in ORAS OU it took them two weeks to ban Mega Salamence, I say we give Nucleon two weeks of solid battling as the same courtesy.

See, I don't think you quite grasp how powerful a Nuclear Hyper Voice really is. Metalynx, at best, can only survive two hits before its down for the count, and since its speed is absolutely atrocious (its even lower that Beliaddon's!), it will die before it can do anything. Lanthan might have a better chance of standing up to the nuclear demon, but why would Nucleon stay out and face it in the first place?

As a matter of fact, why would it stay out against any of its counters or checks? If Lanthan, Tracton, Garaweal, Hazma, Inflageth, Yatagaryu etc. were to switch in after its taken down one of their team members, its trainer would just return it and send out an appropriate counter to the pokemon you sent out. They can then bide their time until the checks are dealt with, then send out Nucleon to mop up the rest.

Entry hazards can whittle in down, especially if you combine Spikes and Stealth rocks, but getting those up will be a problem, as Anti-leads such as Antarki, Dramsama (pre nerf), Taunt Laissure, and Prankster Whimsicott straight up prevent that from happening. Toxic can put it on a timer, but good luck landing it on it before it stomps on the status user. Paralysis would be a problem, but the 'mon that have a guaranteed way of applying it all quickly fall before its nuclear might, unless they are running a Focus Sash. Which leads to another problem: if a person doesn't want to run a rigid team comp, or use mediocre mons, they have to waste an item slot on a status/Trick Room/Wonder Room user just to get the chance to proc a status. Given how prevalent hazard users are without a Rapid Spinners or a Defoger about, those Sashes have a very high chance of becoming useless in the long run. That will leave you back at square one against an almost uncounterable threat.

 Sticky Web could hobble the terror, but if the opponent runs SW as well, then your back at square one. If a Luxelong has time to set up a Wonder Room, or a Trick Room with Dramsama, those moves could counter it, but they could also very well cripple you if your don't build you team to accommodate that possibily. Which lead to adopting another rigid comp just to find a way to beat Nucleon.

While I am in support of a brief  trail run of it, I would not be against a quick ban of it from the fledgling OU. That thing is just too strong, with only checks to hold it back from sweeping everything in sight.

Everyone else is theorymonning so why shouldn't I?

252+ SpA Pixilate Abomasnow Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Abomasnow: 130-154 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I had to do a workaround in the calcs to account for nucleons existence, but there you go. This is a modest 252SA nucleon (Fairy type in this calc) hyper voice with atomizate (pixilate) neutral against a 252 hp 252 sd Lanthan. It's a 4hko. Meanwhile Lanthan can 

4 Atk Abomasnow Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 260-308 (80.9 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Do that back to Nucleon with 4 Ev's in attack investment. Work around the EV's or just run Subduction and Lanthan can switch in and KO nucleon. Since M- Metalynx is roughly the same only more attack and special defense, same goes for it. These calculations, mind you, assume that Atomizae works the same as Pixilate, and there are rumors that Atomizat does not secretly provide the 1.33x boost when normal -> nuclear happens. So if that's the case, it will do less than my calculations say.


As for the switching thing, that's expected of competitive battling. You could replace Nucleon with any good attacker in the scenario you've decided. 

 "As a matter of fact, why would it stay out against any of its counters or checks? If Actan Counters etc. were to switch in after its taken down one of their team members, its trainer would just return it and send out an appropriate counter to the pokemon you sent out. They can then bide their time until the checks are dealt with, then send out Actan to mop up the rest." 

That literally happens all the time in competitive battling. Take advantage of the switching to do something then, that's how it works. Look, I'm not trying to say this thing isn't broken, I just want confirmation that it is instead of throwing guesses around. Now my GUESS is, this is broken and needs to go, but I still don't know for sure.
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#23
As someone who's been doing OU since fourth gen (I'm not using that as a qualifier, just ballparking my experience with the meta in case someone knows better) I just have a couple things to say.

1. Nucleon wrecks. Absolutely. And with the limited range of canon Pokemon Uranium has, there doesn't really appear to be a hard counter to it that doesn't need a specific set to do any damage or dies in one hit.

2. That said, I'd be in favor of a two-week suspect test, though honestly I also wouldn't raise a fuss if it was quickbanned.

3. From what I gather a lot of the threat with Nucleon comes from the same effect Kyogre has in Uber- your team either revolves around running it or countering it. However, my memory may be messing with me, but I think Garchomp had that effect in Gen 4 OU as well and it wasn't banned. (I think. I honestly don't remember clearly.)
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#24
(09-29-2016, 11:25 PM)Keileon Wrote: As someone who's been doing OU since fourth gen (I'm not using that as a qualifier, just ballparking my experience with the meta in case someone knows better) I just have a couple things to say.

1. Nucleon wrecks. Absolutely. And with the limited range of canon Pokemon Uranium has, there doesn't really appear to be a hard counter to it that doesn't need a specific set to do any damage or dies in one hit.

2. That said, I'd be in favor of a two-week suspect test, though honestly I also wouldn't raise a fuss if it was quickbanned.

3. From what I gather a lot of the threat with Nucleon comes from the same effect Kyogre has in Uber- your team either revolves around running it or countering it. However, my memory may be messing with me, but I think Garchomp had that effect in Gen 4 OU as well and it wasn't banned. (I think. I honestly don't remember clearly.)

Agreed with your points. Chompy was banned in gen 4 for its overcentralization, I was there. This is another argument to be made for nucleon, but people were focusing on its power so so was I.
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#25
I will say that a lot of Nucleon's threat would be neutralized if it were thrown into modern OU meta with all the canon Pokemon. I know it's a moot point unless the new devs want to throw that nat dex in, but it's worth noting that you'd have a lot of really bulky and powerful Steel-types (Filter users like Mega Aggron come to mind, considering it gets Stealth Rock and Dragon Tail) as well as a lot of fast priority-users that can basically one-shot it if it isn't holding a Focus Sash (and a fair amount of Pokemon that can outspeed it if it is).

Hell, if we threw it into Sun/Moon meta then Jangmo-o's evo, if it retains Soundproof, would be a common and solid counter because Pixilate Sylveon also likes to run Hyper Voice.

Edit: I realize I wasn't clear why I specifically mentioned Filter users- Filter reduces the risk that M-Aggron or something would get killed by a Fighting type attack or something when the opponent inevitably switched Nucleon out. Near-guaranteeing at least a Stealth Rock and one Dragon Tail.)
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#26
No matter how you slice it, Nucleon is very polarizing. You either run a team that build around it, or you run a team that is built to try and counter. Not terribly fun to play against, or even play WITH. After all, if you had a 'mon that is guaranteed to screw the other team over is they even slightly misstep, it take out all the suspense and challenge in the fight.

As for introducing the national dex, while that would introduce several counters to Nucleon, that would bring is own bucket of crab to jockey around. Namely, the 700+ pokemon, tried and test throughout the generations, or are going to be played tested en mass by thousands of people in the future generation, will completely saturate the new comp. scene. Then it would not be Uranium Comp, it would be the sprawling mess that is the normal scene, which would take out the fun and experimentation that the new scene would/will bring.

Off topic, but what do you guys think of Ratfitti? Do you think its OU, or Uber worthy?
Like the wind, I come and go as I please... but I am always there to provide a comforting breeze.

Member of Team PUNishment. Pun-pare for Struggle, make it Double Team!

Heart Phantom is my OTP~ Heart

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#27
Strike out Chimaconda, and add S5-1A and Gargyph into the list under my name.

Thanks to @Lord Windos, I'm working on Chimaconda right now, and its soon to be uploaded in day's time.


EDIT: As much as I appreciate more competitive guide writers, looking at this list makes me feel... rushed. Many of you guys on the list have a long list of mons they wanna showcase on, but I hate it even more if they rush a project (Lets say, upload 2 or more showcases in 1 week) and give us a very simple, incomplete analysis. I know I did the same to my Escartress guide, but that was solely because it was hard for me to test it out when Online Lobby was extremely borked before the server overhaul. Will finish that guide up when I'm done with Chimaconda.

Needless to say, I really appreciate it if you guys took your time to write very detailed analysis, like what @Lord Windos, @Jabuloso, @Dragonstrike and myself did. I'm not saying that you should live up to such detailed expectations, but it does save the trouble of giving your showcases overhauls when you feel like its too lacking.


Shout out to everyone that has contributed so far! Once the Online Lobby is 100% fixed, the competitive scene will be where its at! ;3

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#28
Nice~! Though it should be said that I always update and modify my guides based on input from the community, so sometime I have to add or overhall my analysis~. Still, I am dedicated to producing guide for as long as my interest holds out!
Like the wind, I come and go as I please... but I am always there to provide a comforting breeze.

Member of Team PUNishment. Pun-pare for Struggle, make it Double Team!

Heart Phantom is my OTP~ Heart

Online ID: 000650
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#29
I'd like to make threads for Yatagaryu and Electruxo if those aren't taken. They'll be as detailed as my last one of that helps, so as to help merge them into Reevee's more easily when the time comes.

Also, Windos, that is the better argument when arguing for Nucleon's ban: its centralization when team building. Although preparing for top tier threats is proninent within any metagame, it could easily be argued that one has to prepare too much for Nucleon. Still would like to see playtesting though.

As for Raffiti, I don't have enough information right now to have a say in it.
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#30
Well, it can learn (and Relearn!) Sketch multiple times, and has equal speed to Nucleon. Have it Sketch Shell Smash, Expunge/Nuclear Slash/Atomic Punch/Earthquake, give it a Flame or Toxic Orb with Quick Feet, and have it run Protect to safely proc the status, and Taunt/Sucker Punch/Flamethrower. Add in max EV's to Speed and Sp.Atk/Atk? You got yourself a plage rat, baby. You could even run focus sash so that it can get a Free Shell Smash off, and then let it sweep to its hearts content.

I'll go over everything in more detail when I do my guide on it, but man that thing has the potential to be savage.
Like the wind, I come and go as I please... but I am always there to provide a comforting breeze.

Member of Team PUNishment. Pun-pare for Struggle, make it Double Team!

Heart Phantom is my OTP~ Heart

Online ID: 000650
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