(09-29-2016, 11:23 AM)tarutaru Wrote: Sorry to say this, but to say my opinion, I just think it's pointless and dangerous at the same time to discuss which Pokemon should be banned without actually doing the battles. Of course it's free to "guess" which Pokemon would be strong in the competetive fields, but when it comes about banning, then it should be treated with extra caution.

There must be plenty of battles held before the decision. After all, even Nucleon and Inflagetah may end up in being "not so strong as it seemed". Also bunch of battling videos might help the decision, as it works as a source of real battle situations, not just theoritical ones.

I'm simply not a fan of the idea to "ban" Pokemon, but really, I'm afraid of Pokemons being banned unfairly because of people saying "Nucleon should be banned, because I think so". Everyone thought M-Salamence would dominate the wi-fi rating battles right after the release of ORAS, and then after a week only a few kept using it and other returned to using M-Kangaskhan and M-Gengar as a mega position as if no new megas were released. Top of the theoritical battles fell to nothing in real battles.

(09-29-2016, 11:23 AM)tarutaru Wrote: Sorry to say this, but to say my opinion, I just think it's pointless and dangerous at the same time to discuss which Pokemon should be banned without actually doing the battles. Of course it's free to "guess" which Pokemon would be strong in the competetive fields, but when it comes about banning, then it should be treated with extra caution.

There must be plenty of battles held before the decision. After all, even Nucleon and Inflagetah may end up in being "not so strong as it seemed". Also bunch of battling videos might help the decision, as it works as a source of real battle situations, not just theoritical ones.

I'm simply not a fan of the idea to "ban" Pokemon, but really, I'm afraid of Pokemons being banned unfairly because of people saying "Nucleon should be banned, because I think so". Everyone thought M-Salamence would dominate the wi-fi rating battles right after the release of ORAS, and then after a week only a few kept using it and other returned to using M-Kangaskhan and M-Gengar as a mega position as if no new megas were released. Top of the theoritical battles fell to nothing in real battles.

(09-29-2016, 10:39 AM)Jabuloso Wrote: Nucleon should be banned, there's no doubts about that. When a Pokémon has no reliable counter and forces you to always include Pokémons that can at least try to do something against it, well, that Pokémon surely should be banned. Over-centralization isn't a good thing in any metagame, in any game.

Inflagetah is a little bit weaker than Nucleon as there are some ways of playing against it. However, most of the things that threat Inflagetah are weak to Earthquake (which is a reliable move). Even with we had Heatran,a Pokémon that is immune to Flame Impact and resists Extremespeed, it'd still be weak to Earthquake, which leads to a scenario where, even if we theoretically have ways of playing against it, Inflagetah can overcome it's only weakness with just one move. You could switch a Ghost-type into Extremespeed, but, unless that said Ghost-type can win one-on-one, Inflagetah will most likely use Flame Impact which most Ghost-types can't take more than two hits, besides Antarki, but Antarki is weak to Earthquake so, you know. You could switch in a Pokémon with Flash Fire if you're predicting a Flame Impact, but the ones with Flash Fire are all frail and can't take Extremespeed - and one of them is weak to Earthquake too, lol. You could have a bulky Water-type, and that's actually your most reliable choice. To be honest, our best choice would be Mutios, but Mutios isn't available right now. That means Inflagetah forces you to include a Pokémon that can resist at least one of it's STAB moves, and that's over-centralization. In other words, deserves to be banned.

Yatagaryu, imo, doesn't have to be banned. There's plenty of options to counter it, like Lanthan, Metalynx, Mega Whimsicott (not so viable, I think), Luxelong. Alpico can switch into Dragon Pulse and retaliate with a super effective Ice-move; Scarf Laissure can switch into Thunder and kill Yatagaryu with an EQ. Of course, at least 3 of these Pokémons are weak to Focus Blast, but that's isn't a reliable move, so we actually have viable ways to play against the Electric Dragon. There aren't a lot of options, but there are more options than with the previous two Pokémons. However, that's just theory; maybe the reality proves that Yatagaryu is too much for Uranium's meta.

I don't know too much about Syrentide, so I won't dare say anything about it, but, considering what I know about it, I think there's no need in banning it. I can be wrong, of course.

(09-29-2016, 02:56 PM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-29-2016, 11:23 AM)tarutaru Wrote: Sorry to say this, but to say my opinion, I just think it's pointless and dangerous at the same time to discuss which Pokemon should be banned without actually doing the battles. Of course it's free to "guess" which Pokemon would be strong in the competetive fields, but when it comes about banning, then it should be treated with extra caution.

There must be plenty of battles held before the decision. After all, even Nucleon and Inflagetah may end up in being "not so strong as it seemed". Also bunch of battling videos might help the decision, as it works as a source of real battle situations, not just theoritical ones.

I'm simply not a fan of the idea to "ban" Pokemon, but really, I'm afraid of Pokemons being banned unfairly because of people saying "Nucleon should be banned, because I think so". Everyone thought M-Salamence would dominate the wi-fi rating battles right after the release of ORAS, and then after a week only a few kept using it and other returned to using M-Kangaskhan and M-Gengar as a mega position as if no new megas were released. Top of the theoritical battles fell to nothing in real battles.

Well, nothing is banned yet.  The reason nothing is banned yet is because of the lack of playtesting, as you mentioned.  Consider the mentions in my write up as a watch list of sorts.

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(09-29-2016, 10:39 AM)Jabuloso Wrote: Nucleon should be banned, there's no doubts about that. When a Pokémon has no reliable counter and forces you to always include Pokémons that can at least try to do something against it, well, that Pokémon surely should be banned. Over-centralization isn't a good thing in any metagame, in any game.

Inflagetah is a little bit weaker than Nucleon as there are some ways of playing against it. However, most of the things that threat Inflagetah are weak to Earthquake (which is a reliable move). Even with we had Heatran,a Pokémon that is immune to Flame Impact and resists Extremespeed, it'd still be weak to Earthquake, which leads to a scenario where, even if we theoretically have ways of playing against it, Inflagetah can overcome it's only weakness with just one move. You could switch a Ghost-type into Extremespeed, but, unless that said Ghost-type can win one-on-one, Inflagetah will most likely use Flame Impact which most Ghost-types can't take more than two hits, besides Antarki, but Antarki is weak to Earthquake so, you know. You could switch in a Pokémon with Flash Fire if you're predicting a Flame Impact, but the ones with Flash Fire are all frail and can't take Extremespeed - and one of them is weak to Earthquake too, lol. You could have a bulky Water-type, and that's actually your most reliable choice. To be honest, our best choice would be Mutios, but Mutios isn't available right now. That means Inflagetah forces you to include a Pokémon that can resist at least one of it's STAB moves, and that's over-centralization. In other words, deserves to be banned.

Yatagaryu, imo, doesn't have to be banned. There's plenty of options to counter it, like Lanthan, Metalynx, Mega Whimsicott (not so viable, I think), Luxelong. Alpico can switch into Dragon Pulse and retaliate with a super effective Ice-move; Scarf Laissure can switch into Thunder and kill Yatagaryu with an EQ. Of course, at least 3 of these Pokémons are weak to Focus Blast, but that's isn't a reliable move, so we actually have viable ways to play against the Electric Dragon. There aren't a lot of options, but there are more options than with the previous two Pokémons. However, that's just theory; maybe the reality proves that Yatagaryu is too much for Uranium's meta.

I don't know too much about Syrentide, so I won't dare say anything about it, but, considering what I know about it, I think there's no need in banning it. I can be wrong, of course.

Lanthan and Metalynx can't reliably counter Yatagaryu when it has Focus Blast at it's disposal.  The only true counters to Yatagaryu are Ground types and Luxelong, nothing else can survive more than two hits from Yata (and therefore cannot counter it unless they aren't hard switched in).

I agree with your opinion on Syrentide.  Unfortunately, I can't say the same for everyone else, which is why I mentioned it.

(09-29-2016, 09:32 PM)Matt Wrote: I agree that we should be cautious about banning before the actual meta even develops, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't if a situation arises that calls for it. It's a relief to see that nobody thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned (anyone who thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned frankly has a poor grasp of competitive Pokemon - that's okay, we were all noobs once, myself included), but Nucleon should absolutely be quickbanned - that is, banned immediately without a suspect test. I already talked about why Nucleon is by far beyond anything we've ever seen in the Nucleon analysis thread, but a couple people here summarized it nicely by noting that it destroys the vast majority of the meta and that you'd have to run very specific countermeasures to it, harshly limiting any sort of diversity - overcentralization.

Whenever a new generation comes out, there are quickbans of some new Pokemon before the meta even exists yet. When Gen 6 came out, Xerneas and Yveltal were banned from OU straight from the beginning, even though nobody had the opportunity to use them in the new generation's meta. That's because it's plainly obvious that both of them are completely busted in OU. What's the point in having them around? We'd just have a terrible meta where those two dominate the meta and everything that loses to either of them becomes unviable. Nucleon is no different. It's so obviously broken that we might as well save ourselves a month (or however long its suspect will last) of having a terrible Nucleon-meta and just ban it straight away. Not quickbanning Nucleon is like not quickbanning Deoxys-Attack from NU.

At the moment, Nucleon is the only Pokemon that needs quickbanning. Obviously there are others that should be suspected in the future, but Nucleon is by far the most powerful Pokemon in existence and has no place in any competitive environment. Sure, this is all based on "theory" but come on. It's really not even up for debate.

(09-29-2016, 10:09 PM)Cataclyptic Wrote:

(09-29-2016, 09:32 PM)Matt Wrote: I agree that we should be cautious about banning before the actual meta even develops, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't if a situation arises that calls for it. It's a relief to see that nobody thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned (anyone who thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned frankly has a poor grasp of competitive Pokemon - that's okay, we were all noobs once, myself included), but Nucleon should absolutely be quickbanned - that is, banned immediately without a suspect test. I already talked about why Nucleon is by far beyond anything we've ever seen in the Nucleon analysis thread, but a couple people here summarized it nicely by noting that it destroys the vast majority of the meta and that you'd have to run very specific countermeasures to it, harshly limiting any sort of diversity - overcentralization.

Whenever a new generation comes out, there are quickbans of some new Pokemon before the meta even exists yet. When Gen 6 came out, Xerneas and Yveltal were banned from OU straight from the beginning, even though nobody had the opportunity to use them in the new generation's meta. That's because it's plainly obvious that both of them are completely busted in OU. What's the point in having them around? We'd just have a terrible meta where those two dominate the meta and everything that loses to either of them becomes unviable. Nucleon is no different. It's so obviously broken that we might as well save ourselves a month (or however long its suspect will last) of having a terrible Nucleon-meta and just ban it straight away. Not quickbanning Nucleon is like not quickbanning Deoxys-Attack from NU.

At the moment, Nucleon is the only Pokemon that needs quickbanning. Obviously there are others that should be suspected in the future, but Nucleon is by far the most powerful Pokemon in existence and has no place in any competitive environment. Sure, this is all based on "theory" but come on. It's really not even up for debate.

I'd like to debate. Sticky web and any sort of priority destroys Nucleon, without its speed its nothing. Specially defensive Lanthan and Metalynx can come in on Hyper Voice and OHKO it. It's weak to stealth rocks and vulnerable to every entry hazard. 

Nucleon HAS to run a choice scarf, otherwise It'll just be outsped and defeated, hence why M-Metalynx and Lanthan are safe switch ins, Hyper Voice is a 3HKO for the most part. Additionally Nucleon can't switch on anything with priority, so Inflagetah, Archilles, Tubareel and other priority users function as checks if they can get in. 

The combination of these factors may prove too overwhelming for the radioactive fox and it may yet stay. Or maybe not and it'll go. We need more battles to figure it out- even in ORAS OU it took them two weeks to ban Mega Salamence, I say we give Nucleon two weeks of solid battling as the same courtesy.