(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 05:21 AM)Koentine Wrote: Really nice work, and to (maybe) add to it I might point out that I've had 2, though only those 2, separate instances where Subduction did NOT confuse my own Laissure, and no, I wasn't running it with a berry to clear confusion either time. I suspect that either it bugged out on me and was supposed to confuse it both times, or the chance to confuse isn't 100% but IS set so high (90-95%) that it's practically impossible to ever see it not activate that effect. Either way, I haven't read any posts or reports of anyone else not having Subduction not confuse their users, so it may have just bugged on me; it was before any of the unofficial (now official) patches came out, just the base 1.0.1 game, so that may have had something to do with it.

For properly constructive input, I should point out that Hone Claws exists in this guy's movepool and shouldn't be overlooked if you get a free turn to use it. Moxie + Hone Claws + enough speed investment and/or a speed-positive nature can make this thing a nearly unstoppable sweeper unless staring down a bulky enough water type as that accuracy boost can be critical in some movesets, particularly your "Harassment" set if both Dragon Tail and Toxic are used.

Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 05:21 AM)Koentine Wrote: Really nice work, and to (maybe) add to it I might point out that I've had 2, though only those 2, separate instances where Subduction did NOT confuse my own Laissure, and no, I wasn't running it with a berry to clear confusion either time. I suspect that either it bugged out on me and was supposed to confuse it both times, or the chance to confuse isn't 100% but IS set so high (90-95%) that it's practically impossible to ever see it not activate that effect. Either way, I haven't read any posts or reports of anyone else not having Subduction not confuse their users, so it may have just bugged on me; it was before any of the unofficial (now official) patches came out, just the base 1.0.1 game, so that may have had something to do with it.

For properly constructive input, I should point out that Hone Claws exists in this guy's movepool and shouldn't be overlooked if you get a free turn to use it. Moxie + Hone Claws + enough speed investment and/or a speed-positive nature can make this thing a nearly unstoppable sweeper unless staring down a bulky enough water type as that accuracy boost can be critical in some movesets, particularly your "Harassment" set if both Dragon Tail and Toxic are used.

Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

(09-27-2016, 10:50 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 05:21 AM)Koentine Wrote: Really nice work, and to (maybe) add to it I might point out that I've had 2, though only those 2, separate instances where Subduction did NOT confuse my own Laissure, and no, I wasn't running it with a berry to clear confusion either time. I suspect that either it bugged out on me and was supposed to confuse it both times, or the chance to confuse isn't 100% but IS set so high (90-95%) that it's practically impossible to ever see it not activate that effect. Either way, I haven't read any posts or reports of anyone else not having Subduction not confuse their users, so it may have just bugged on me; it was before any of the unofficial (now official) patches came out, just the base 1.0.1 game, so that may have had something to do with it.

For properly constructive input, I should point out that Hone Claws exists in this guy's movepool and shouldn't be overlooked if you get a free turn to use it. Moxie + Hone Claws + enough speed investment and/or a speed-positive nature can make this thing a nearly unstoppable sweeper unless staring down a bulky enough water type as that accuracy boost can be critical in some movesets, particularly your "Harassment" set if both Dragon Tail and Toxic are used.

Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

However, due to the nature of the effect, Sheer Force should not boost the power of Subduction.  Back before when generation 5 first came out, everyone was speculating how broken the ability would be combined with things like Brave Bird and Close Combat, but detrimental effects aren't removed by the ability's effect.  And as such, they don't get the boost either.  If Lanthan's Sheer Force does boost Subduction currently, that should be changed in a future patch so that it doesn't, as it defeats the purpose of the move entirely.

And concerning Hone Claws, I did notice it was in the movepool, but  even though it sounds like a good idea due to Subduction and Stone Edges' lower accuracy, it isn't worth it for just those two moves.  Subduction will end up forcing you out and forfeit the buffs gained, and Stone Edge isn't worth trying to slowly set up for using when all it's used for is coverage.  Swords Dance is the vastly superior option here.  You almost never see Hone Claws based sets on pokemon that learn it, since they usually have better things to do than boost their accuracy and attack by a mere 1 stage without any increase in bulk to help (which is the sole reason why Coil sets exist for pokemon like Eelektross).

(09-27-2016, 01:39 PM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 05:21 AM)Koentine Wrote: Really nice work, and to (maybe) add to it I might point out that I've had 2, though only those 2, separate instances where Subduction did NOT confuse my own Laissure, and no, I wasn't running it with a berry to clear confusion either time. I suspect that either it bugged out on me and was supposed to confuse it both times, or the chance to confuse isn't 100% but IS set so high (90-95%) that it's practically impossible to ever see it not activate that effect. Either way, I haven't read any posts or reports of anyone else not having Subduction not confuse their users, so it may have just bugged on me; it was before any of the unofficial (now official) patches came out, just the base 1.0.1 game, so that may have had something to do with it.

For properly constructive input, I should point out that Hone Claws exists in this guy's movepool and shouldn't be overlooked if you get a free turn to use it. Moxie + Hone Claws + enough speed investment and/or a speed-positive nature can make this thing a nearly unstoppable sweeper unless staring down a bulky enough water type as that accuracy boost can be critical in some movesets, particularly your "Harassment" set if both Dragon Tail and Toxic are used.

Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

Even if it does confuse, Lanthan's Sheer Force boosted Subduction and Metal Cruncher still make it one of the best mons in Uranium, probably only behind Nucleon and Yatagaryu.  The Choice Band set is a stupidly good pivot.

---

(09-27-2016, 10:50 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 05:21 AM)Koentine Wrote: Really nice work, and to (maybe) add to it I might point out that I've had 2, though only those 2, separate instances where Subduction did NOT confuse my own Laissure, and no, I wasn't running it with a berry to clear confusion either time. I suspect that either it bugged out on me and was supposed to confuse it both times, or the chance to confuse isn't 100% but IS set so high (90-95%) that it's practically impossible to ever see it not activate that effect. Either way, I haven't read any posts or reports of anyone else not having Subduction not confuse their users, so it may have just bugged on me; it was before any of the unofficial (now official) patches came out, just the base 1.0.1 game, so that may have had something to do with it.

For properly constructive input, I should point out that Hone Claws exists in this guy's movepool and shouldn't be overlooked if you get a free turn to use it. Moxie + Hone Claws + enough speed investment and/or a speed-positive nature can make this thing a nearly unstoppable sweeper unless staring down a bulky enough water type as that accuracy boost can be critical in some movesets, particularly your "Harassment" set if both Dragon Tail and Toxic are used.

Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

However, due to the nature of the effect, Sheer Force should not boost the power of Subduction.  Back before when generation 5 first came out, everyone was speculating how broken the ability would be combined with things like Brave Bird and Close Combat, but detrimental effects aren't removed by the ability's effect.  And as such, they don't get the boost either.  If Lanthan's Sheer Force does boost Subduction currently, that should be changed in a future patch so that it doesn't, as it defeats the purpose of the move entirely.

And concerning Hone Claws, I did notice it was in the movepool, but  even though it sounds like a good idea due to Subduction and Stone Edges' lower accuracy, it isn't worth it for just those two moves.  Subduction will end up forcing you out and forfeit the buffs gained, and Stone Edge isn't worth trying to slowly set up for using when all it's used for is coverage.  Swords Dance is the vastly superior option here.  You almost never see Hone Claws based sets on pokemon that learn it, since they usually have better things to do than boost their accuracy and attack by a mere 1 stage without any increase in bulk to help (which is the sole reason why Coil sets exist for pokemon like Eelektross).

No, Subduction also lowers the target's speed by two stages.  Even if Sheer Force doesn't prevent confusion, Sheer Force would still give Subduction a power boost in exchange for not lowering the target's speed by two stages.

(09-27-2016, 02:21 PM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 01:39 PM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 05:21 AM)Koentine Wrote: Really nice work, and to (maybe) add to it I might point out that I've had 2, though only those 2, separate instances where Subduction did NOT confuse my own Laissure, and no, I wasn't running it with a berry to clear confusion either time. I suspect that either it bugged out on me and was supposed to confuse it both times, or the chance to confuse isn't 100% but IS set so high (90-95%) that it's practically impossible to ever see it not activate that effect. Either way, I haven't read any posts or reports of anyone else not having Subduction not confuse their users, so it may have just bugged on me; it was before any of the unofficial (now official) patches came out, just the base 1.0.1 game, so that may have had something to do with it.

For properly constructive input, I should point out that Hone Claws exists in this guy's movepool and shouldn't be overlooked if you get a free turn to use it. Moxie + Hone Claws + enough speed investment and/or a speed-positive nature can make this thing a nearly unstoppable sweeper unless staring down a bulky enough water type as that accuracy boost can be critical in some movesets, particularly your "Harassment" set if both Dragon Tail and Toxic are used.

Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

Even if it does confuse, Lanthan's Sheer Force boosted Subduction and Metal Cruncher still make it one of the best mons in Uranium, probably only behind Nucleon and Yatagaryu.  The Choice Band set is a stupidly good pivot.

---

(09-27-2016, 10:50 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote: Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

However, due to the nature of the effect, Sheer Force should not boost the power of Subduction.  Back before when generation 5 first came out, everyone was speculating how broken the ability would be combined with things like Brave Bird and Close Combat, but detrimental effects aren't removed by the ability's effect.  And as such, they don't get the boost either.  If Lanthan's Sheer Force does boost Subduction currently, that should be changed in a future patch so that it doesn't, as it defeats the purpose of the move entirely.

And concerning Hone Claws, I did notice it was in the movepool, but  even though it sounds like a good idea due to Subduction and Stone Edges' lower accuracy, it isn't worth it for just those two moves.  Subduction will end up forcing you out and forfeit the buffs gained, and Stone Edge isn't worth trying to slowly set up for using when all it's used for is coverage.  Swords Dance is the vastly superior option here.  You almost never see Hone Claws based sets on pokemon that learn it, since they usually have better things to do than boost their accuracy and attack by a mere 1 stage without any increase in bulk to help (which is the sole reason why Coil sets exist for pokemon like Eelektross).

No, Subduction also lowers the target's speed by two stages.  Even if Sheer Force doesn't prevent confusion, Sheer Force would still give Subduction a power boost in exchange for not lowering the target's speed by two stages.

Wait, it also lowers speed?  Okay then, that's interesting.  I haven't heard anybody say that.  However, it's still a detrimental effect to offset the power of the move.  As such, Sheer Force should not negate it and boost the move's power.  General rule of thumb with the ability is that if it's a helpful effect, remove it.  If harmful, leave it.  Close Combat and Outrage are both examples of moves with those kinds of effects seen on Subduction that don't receive a Sheer Force boost.  Flare Blitz is an example of a move that has both helpful and harmful effects.  Sheer Force doesn't remove its recoil, but it does remove its rare burn chance.

Sheer Force Metal Cruncher is still pretty terrifying though, thinking about it...

(09-27-2016, 02:31 PM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 02:21 PM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 01:39 PM)poweroftibarn Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote: Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option. Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

Even if it does confuse, Lanthan's Sheer Force boosted Subduction and Metal Cruncher still make it one of the best mons in Uranium, probably only behind Nucleon and Yatagaryu.  The Choice Band set is a stupidly good pivot.

---

(09-27-2016, 10:50 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 10:05 AM)Lord Windos Wrote: If that is true, a Sheer Force Subduction would probably be one of the most powerful, no drawback moves in the game beside Nucleon's Hyper Voice and Yatagaryu's Thunder. That's a terrifying thing to consider.....

However, due to the nature of the effect, Sheer Force should not boost the power of Subduction.  Back before when generation 5 first came out, everyone was speculating how broken the ability would be combined with things like Brave Bird and Close Combat, but detrimental effects aren't removed by the ability's effect.  And as such, they don't get the boost either.  If Lanthan's Sheer Force does boost Subduction currently, that should be changed in a future patch so that it doesn't, as it defeats the purpose of the move entirely.

And concerning Hone Claws, I did notice it was in the movepool, but  even though it sounds like a good idea due to Subduction and Stone Edges' lower accuracy, it isn't worth it for just those two moves.  Subduction will end up forcing you out and forfeit the buffs gained, and Stone Edge isn't worth trying to slowly set up for using when all it's used for is coverage.  Swords Dance is the vastly superior option here.  You almost never see Hone Claws based sets on pokemon that learn it, since they usually have better things to do than boost their accuracy and attack by a mere 1 stage without any increase in bulk to help (which is the sole reason why Coil sets exist for pokemon like Eelektross).

No, Subduction also lowers the target's speed by two stages.  Even if Sheer Force doesn't prevent confusion, Sheer Force would still give Subduction a power boost in exchange for not lowering the target's speed by two stages.

Wait, it also lowers speed?  Okay then, that's interesting.  I haven't heard anybody say that.  However, it's still a detrimental effect to offset the power of the move.  As such, Sheer Force should not negate it and boost the move's power.  General rule of thumb with the ability is that if it's a helpful effect, remove it.  If harmful, leave it.  Close Combat and Outrage are both examples of moves with those kinds of effects seen on Subduction that don't receive a Sheer Force boost.  Flare Blitz is an example of a move that has both helpful and harmful effects.  Sheer Force doesn't remove its recoil, but it does remove its rare burn chance.

Sheer Force Metal Cruncher is still pretty terrifying though, thinking about it...

Subduction reduces the OPPONENT's speed by two, not the users.

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote: Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option.

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote: Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

(09-27-2016, 05:42 PM)Koentine Wrote:

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote: Swords Dance really is superior to Hone Claws, I would never use Hone Claws if SD was an option.

I dunno, my logic here is that its base Atk stat is high enough to not warrant SD if you have Moxie available, assuming you switch into something that can be KO'd by EQ/Subduction/what have you after only a one stage boost, and if the moves in the set besides HC aren't 100% accuracy, then my observation is that letting the moves hit is more valuable than jumping them up an extra stage in power then netting a possibly fatal miss the next turn. I like to roll the dice, but I don't like gambling on accuracy, especially if I'm trying to sweep... to each their own.

(09-27-2016, 08:31 AM)poweroftibarn Wrote: Your first observation about Subduction not having a 100% chance to confuse the user is really interesting however. If what you are saying is true, then Lanthan's Sheer Force ability overrides Subduction's confusion chance entirely, since not being 100% would mean that the confusion is a secondary effect and would go away with Sheer Force.

It's only a guess. Again, it MAY just have bugged on me since I haven't seen anyone else report the same thing I did.

As for the Sheer Force arm of the discussion, it doesn't negate primary effects inflicted on the user, only secondary effects (the speed drop that affects anything that survives Subduction). This means for maximum impact, you should have a Safeguard user set things up before sending out Lanthan, so you get a few turns to spam Subduction and hope the opponent doesn't switch in anything that flies or Levitates.

(09-27-2016, 05:53 PM)Dragonstrike Wrote: And the logic for running SD instead is that it not only gets you more power, but very few of Laissure's moves actually could use that accuracy boost.  Subduction and Stone Edge are the only notable ones, and they aren't even that bad accuracy wise compared to things like Thunder and Blizzard outside of their weathers.

(09-27-2016, 05:53 PM)Dragonstrike Wrote: Actually, scratch that last part.  Safeguard can't protect you from self inflicted confusion from moves like Outrage, so it shouldn't protect you from Subduction's either. The only out would be to skill swap Own Tempo onto the pokemon, which is needlessly complicated since Ludicolo is the only mon with that ability in Uranium.