(09-29-2016, 10:34 PM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-29-2016, 10:09 PM)Cataclyptic Wrote:

(09-29-2016, 09:32 PM)Matt Wrote: I agree that we should be cautious about banning before the actual meta even develops, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't if a situation arises that calls for it. It's a relief to see that nobody thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned (anyone who thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned frankly has a poor grasp of competitive Pokemon - that's okay, we were all noobs once, myself included), but Nucleon should absolutely be quickbanned - that is, banned immediately without a suspect test. I already talked about why Nucleon is by far beyond anything we've ever seen in the Nucleon analysis thread, but a couple people here summarized it nicely by noting that it destroys the vast majority of the meta and that you'd have to run very specific countermeasures to it, harshly limiting any sort of diversity - overcentralization.

Whenever a new generation comes out, there are quickbans of some new Pokemon before the meta even exists yet. When Gen 6 came out, Xerneas and Yveltal were banned from OU straight from the beginning, even though nobody had the opportunity to use them in the new generation's meta. That's because it's plainly obvious that both of them are completely busted in OU. What's the point in having them around? We'd just have a terrible meta where those two dominate the meta and everything that loses to either of them becomes unviable. Nucleon is no different. It's so obviously broken that we might as well save ourselves a month (or however long its suspect will last) of having a terrible Nucleon-meta and just ban it straight away. Not quickbanning Nucleon is like not quickbanning Deoxys-Attack from NU.

At the moment, Nucleon is the only Pokemon that needs quickbanning. Obviously there are others that should be suspected in the future, but Nucleon is by far the most powerful Pokemon in existence and has no place in any competitive environment. Sure, this is all based on "theory" but come on. It's really not even up for debate.

I'd like to debate. Sticky web and any sort of priority destroys Nucleon, without its speed its nothing. Specially defensive Lanthan and Metalynx can come in on Hyper Voice and OHKO it. It's weak to stealth rocks and vulnerable to every entry hazard. 

Nucleon HAS to run a choice scarf, otherwise It'll just be outsped and defeated, hence why M-Metalynx and Lanthan are safe switch ins, Hyper Voice is a 3HKO for the most part. Additionally Nucleon can't switch on anything with priority, so Inflagetah, Archilles, Tubareel and other priority users function as checks if they can get in. 

The combination of these factors may prove too overwhelming for the radioactive fox and it may yet stay. Or maybe not and it'll go. We need more battles to figure it out- even in ORAS OU it took them two weeks to ban Mega Salamence, I say we give Nucleon two weeks of solid battling as the same courtesy.

See, I don't think you quite grasp how powerful a Nuclear Hyper Voice really is. Metalynx, at best, can only survive two hits before its down for the count, and since its speed is absolutely atrocious (its even lower that Beliaddon's!), it will die before it can do anything. Lanthan might have a better chance of standing up to the nuclear demon, but why would Nucleon stay out and face it in the first place?

As a matter of fact, why would it stay out against any of its counters or checks? If Lanthan, Tracton, Garaweal, Hazma, Inflageth, Yatagaryu etc. were to switch in after its taken down one of their team members, its trainer would just return it and send out an appropriate counter to the pokemon you sent out. They can then bide their time until the checks are dealt with, then send out Nucleon to mop up the rest.

Entry hazards can whittle in down, especially if you combine Spikes and Stealth rocks, but getting those up will be a problem, as Anti-leads such as Antarki, Dramsama (pre nerf), Taunt Laissure, and Prankster Whimsicott straight up prevent that from happening. Toxic can put it on a timer, but good luck landing it on it before it stomps on the status user. Paralysis would be a problem, but the 'mon that have a guaranteed way of applying it all quickly fall before its nuclear might, unless they are running a Focus Sash. Which leads to another problem: if a person doesn't want to run a rigid team comp, or use mediocre mons, they have to waste an item slot on a status/Trick Room/Wonder Room user just to get the chance to proc a status. Given how prevalent hazard users are without a Rapid Spinners or a Defoger about, those Sashes have a very high chance of becoming useless in the long run. That will leave you back at square one against an almost uncounterable threat.

 Sticky Web could hobble the terror, but if the opponent runs SW as well, then your back at square one. If a Luxelong has time to set up a Wonder Room, or a Trick Room with Dramsama, those moves could counter it, but they could also very well cripple you if your don't build you team to accommodate that possibily. Which lead to adopting another rigid comp just to find a way to beat Nucleon.

While I am in support of a brief  trail run of it, I would not be against a quick ban of it from the fledgling OU. That thing is just too strong, with only checks to hold it back from sweeping everything in sight.

(09-29-2016, 10:34 PM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(09-29-2016, 10:09 PM)Cataclyptic Wrote:

(09-29-2016, 09:32 PM)Matt Wrote: I agree that we should be cautious about banning before the actual meta even develops, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't if a situation arises that calls for it. It's a relief to see that nobody thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned (anyone who thinks Nucleon shouldn't be banned frankly has a poor grasp of competitive Pokemon - that's okay, we were all noobs once, myself included), but Nucleon should absolutely be quickbanned - that is, banned immediately without a suspect test. I already talked about why Nucleon is by far beyond anything we've ever seen in the Nucleon analysis thread, but a couple people here summarized it nicely by noting that it destroys the vast majority of the meta and that you'd have to run very specific countermeasures to it, harshly limiting any sort of diversity - overcentralization.

Whenever a new generation comes out, there are quickbans of some new Pokemon before the meta even exists yet. When Gen 6 came out, Xerneas and Yveltal were banned from OU straight from the beginning, even though nobody had the opportunity to use them in the new generation's meta. That's because it's plainly obvious that both of them are completely busted in OU. What's the point in having them around? We'd just have a terrible meta where those two dominate the meta and everything that loses to either of them becomes unviable. Nucleon is no different. It's so obviously broken that we might as well save ourselves a month (or however long its suspect will last) of having a terrible Nucleon-meta and just ban it straight away. Not quickbanning Nucleon is like not quickbanning Deoxys-Attack from NU.

At the moment, Nucleon is the only Pokemon that needs quickbanning. Obviously there are others that should be suspected in the future, but Nucleon is by far the most powerful Pokemon in existence and has no place in any competitive environment. Sure, this is all based on "theory" but come on. It's really not even up for debate.

I'd like to debate. Sticky web and any sort of priority destroys Nucleon, without its speed its nothing. Specially defensive Lanthan and Metalynx can come in on Hyper Voice and OHKO it. It's weak to stealth rocks and vulnerable to every entry hazard. 

Nucleon HAS to run a choice scarf, otherwise It'll just be outsped and defeated, hence why M-Metalynx and Lanthan are safe switch ins, Hyper Voice is a 3HKO for the most part. Additionally Nucleon can't switch on anything with priority, so Inflagetah, Archilles, Tubareel and other priority users function as checks if they can get in. 

The combination of these factors may prove too overwhelming for the radioactive fox and it may yet stay. Or maybe not and it'll go. We need more battles to figure it out- even in ORAS OU it took them two weeks to ban Mega Salamence, I say we give Nucleon two weeks of solid battling as the same courtesy.

See, I don't think you quite grasp how powerful a Nuclear Hyper Voice really is. Metalynx, at best, can only survive two hits before its down for the count, and since its speed is absolutely atrocious (its even lower that Beliaddon's!), it will die before it can do anything. Lanthan might have a better chance of standing up to the nuclear demon, but why would Nucleon stay out and face it in the first place?

As a matter of fact, why would it stay out against any of its counters or checks? If Lanthan, Tracton, Garaweal, Hazma, Inflageth, Yatagaryu etc. were to switch in after its taken down one of their team members, its trainer would just return it and send out an appropriate counter to the pokemon you sent out. They can then bide their time until the checks are dealt with, then send out Nucleon to mop up the rest.

Entry hazards can whittle in down, especially if you combine Spikes and Stealth rocks, but getting those up will be a problem, as Anti-leads such as Antarki, Dramsama (pre nerf), Taunt Laissure, and Prankster Whimsicott straight up prevent that from happening. Toxic can put it on a timer, but good luck landing it on it before it stomps on the status user. Paralysis would be a problem, but the 'mon that have a guaranteed way of applying it all quickly fall before its nuclear might, unless they are running a Focus Sash. Which leads to another problem: if a person doesn't want to run a rigid team comp, or use mediocre mons, they have to waste an item slot on a status/Trick Room/Wonder Room user just to get the chance to proc a status. Given how prevalent hazard users are without a Rapid Spinners or a Defoger about, those Sashes have a very high chance of becoming useless in the long run. That will leave you back at square one against an almost uncounterable threat.

 Sticky Web could hobble the terror, but if the opponent runs SW as well, then your back at square one. If a Luxelong has time to set up a Wonder Room, or a Trick Room with Dramsama, those moves could counter it, but they could also very well cripple you if your don't build you team to accommodate that possibily. Which lead to adopting another rigid comp just to find a way to beat Nucleon.

While I am in support of a brief  trail run of it, I would not be against a quick ban of it from the fledgling OU. That thing is just too strong, with only checks to hold it back from sweeping everything in sight.

(09-29-2016, 11:25 PM)Keileon Wrote: As someone who's been doing OU since fourth gen (I'm not using that as a qualifier, just ballparking my experience with the meta in case someone knows better) I just have a couple things to say.

1. Nucleon wrecks. Absolutely. And with the limited range of canon Pokemon Uranium has, there doesn't really appear to be a hard counter to it that doesn't need a specific set to do any damage or dies in one hit.

2. That said, I'd be in favor of a two-week suspect test, though honestly I also wouldn't raise a fuss if it was quickbanned.

3. From what I gather a lot of the threat with Nucleon comes from the same effect Kyogre has in Uber- your team either revolves around running it or countering it. However, my memory may be messing with me, but I think Garchomp had that effect in Gen 4 OU as well and it wasn't banned. (I think. I honestly don't remember clearly.)