(05-27-2019, 05:40 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote: ...Reiner and I can't ever seem to catch a break...*sigh*...

...that's certainly going to alter things drastically...

(05-27-2019, 05:53 AM)Spiritmon Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 05:40 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote: ...Reiner and I can't ever seem to catch a break...*sigh*...

...that's certainly going to alter things drastically...

So...he going to stay in Team Rocket to stay with Weavile? I was about to say a few things to the burglar cat, but I supose he can only can only communicate to you via Reiner connection.

Besides, I supose he would ignore me completely too. So its up to you now mate. But its not a little overkill Lord Windos? I mean...Reiner already had more than enough suffer in this journey, and see horrors most people would have their will demolished. Weavile cant see his best friend just want to find peace, and have the Rockets with him despite the perks, would only make things far worse?

Heck, even Arial who is the most questionable moral decided to turn the leaf and leave behind Team Rocket. And thanks Arceus none of his Pokemon abbandoned. As a best friend, Weavile should not speak with Reiner but also understand Reiner reasons of leaving Team Rocket behind?

.....I know this is not problem, but...I do know how it is almost loosing a precious partneer (looking to Gaspar death) so I sympathy with Reiner/Dragonstrike case. Maybe its not so permanent like death, but it is something who will make them never see each other ever again.

(05-27-2019, 05:53 AM)Spiritmon Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 05:40 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

Spoiler

...Reiner and I can't ever seem to catch a break...*sigh*...

...that's certainly going to alter things drastically...

Spoiler

So...he going to stay in Team Rocket to stay with Weavile? I was about to say a few things to the burglar cat, but I supose he can only can only communicate to you via Reiner connection.

Besides, I supose he would ignore me completely too. So its up to you now mate. But its not a little overkill @Lord Windos? I mean...Reiner already had more than enough suffer in this journey, and see horrors most people would have their will demolished. Weavile cant see his best friend just want to find peace, and have the Rockets with him despite the perks, would only make things far worse?

Heck, even Arial who is the most questionable moral decided to turn the leaf and leave behind Team Rocket. And thanks Arceus none of his Pokemon abbandoned. As a best friend, Weavile should not speak with Reiner but also understand Reiner reasons of leaving Team Rocket behind?

.....I know this is not problem, but...I do know how it is almost loosing a precious partneer (looking to Gaspar death) so I sympathy with Reiner/Dragonstrike case. Maybe its not so permanent like death, but it is something who will make them never see each other ever again.

(05-27-2019, 06:32 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote: No.  That would go against everything he's been working towards, all that character development he's gone through.

Besides, knowing what Weavile's decided...*sigh*...

...this is quite possibly one of the WORST things that could have possibly happened.

Reiner is going to feel so incredibly betrayed...

...and then Giratina is going to want to do something, which would probably only make things worse...

And this ONE action threatens to undo everything Reiner's been trying to set up, too...

(05-27-2019, 07:51 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

Spoiler

Yeap! That's what makes this ESPECIALLY nasty for everyone.....

Giratina......well, I think she would refrain from killing them for their betrayal against Reiner and leave that matter in his hands, since he did request her not to basically carry out his hit list for him. That, and given the nature of said betrayal (Rebellion against what he sees as WRONG), she might be more sympathetic towards his decision than not (She's still going to be incredibly upset over it, though, for obvious reasons). Unfortunately, their is plenty of things she can do to 'balance the books' without resorting to murdering him on the alter, and given that her Insanity and Powers makes her especially creative when the right mood strikes her......ruh roh indeed for the black cat indeed.

What has Reiner trying to set up again? I have my ideas, but they might be substantially different than yours, mate.

(05-27-2019, 08:49 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

Spoiler

Primarily, my concern is that this is going to SHATTER the illusion that Reiner could be dead.

Sure, Weavile could have maybe survived an ultra powerful Psychic attack thanks to his typing...

But how in the hell would he survive all the Nuclear reactions such an explosion might have caused?  And even if he did, how can he, a Dark type, walk out of a fallout zone with absolutely no trace of radiation on him whatsoever?  That place is still an irradiated hellhole even though it's covered in a Psychic Terrain now (which also might prevent speedy escapes via Priority, mind you).  The place being swarmed by the NG isn't helping matters either, making escaping from such a huge explosion on foot a hard story to believe.

I'd reckon it wouldn't take Petrel more than a few seconds to conclude Reiner is probably still alive somehow after all if Weavile went back.  And when he eventually finds out Reiner is trying to hide from TR...

...well, Weavile will either be richly rewarded for betraying the traitor, or brutally grilled and punished for trying to hide the truth.

And that's only one possible, likely consequence of Weavile returning to TR.

(05-27-2019, 09:02 AM)Lord Windos Wrote: If you really want him to be stopped, though, and ensure that Reiner can get off scott free from TR......all he has to do is pray.

(05-27-2019, 09:11 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote: ...and that's the primary dilemma.

To stop him or not?  Either seems like a terrible option.

Weavile's put Reiner in an incredibly difficult position.  This is easily the hardest choice Reiner might ever have to make...and the odds of him being content with the outcome of that decision are next to none.

Spoiler

(05-27-2019, 07:36 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 05:53 AM)Spiritmon Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 05:40 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

Spoiler

...Reiner and I can't ever seem to catch a break...*sigh*...

...that's certainly going to alter things drastically...

Spoiler

So...he going to stay in Team Rocket to stay with Weavile? I was about to say a few things to the burglar cat, but I supose he can only can only communicate to you via Reiner connection.

Besides, I supose he would ignore me completely too. So its up to you now mate. But its not a little overkill @Lord Windos? I mean...Reiner already had more than enough suffer in this journey, and see horrors most people would have their will demolished. Weavile cant see his best friend just want to find peace, and have the Rockets with him despite the perks, would only make things far worse?

Heck, even Arial who is the most questionable moral decided to turn the leaf and leave behind Team Rocket. And thanks Arceus none of his Pokemon abbandoned. As a best friend, Weavile should not speak with Reiner but also understand Reiner reasons of leaving Team Rocket behind?

.....I know this is not problem, but...I do know how it is almost loosing a precious partneer (looking to Gaspar death) so I sympathy with Reiner/Dragonstrike case. Maybe its not so permanent like death, but it is something who will make them never see each other ever again.

He can communicate with anyone of us, but only if we get into contact with him first. He can answer our calls, but not make them himself, so to speak. Of course, its like you said too: he doesn't have to answer back if he don't want to, and that's very likely the case with Reiner. With Arial....I dunno, I guess he'll humor you, but he doesn't have a reason to talk with you at any length either beyond 'Don't bug me unless it's something important' , and he'll likely just start ignoring you if you bring up Reiner/Dragonstrike at all for the time being, so...yeah.

Weavile.....you have to understand something about him that sets him apart from Reiner and Arial: He's always been through and through thief and criminal, and would always like to remain that way. 

Reiner has always been an Ubersmensch/Rebellious Dragon Tamer that just chooses to follow the rules at his pleasure, and Team Rocket was just an opportunity for him to use in order to strengthen himself and his partners + get more resources to stick it to The Elders back home. He didn't really believe in Team Rocket's ideology or have any Loyalty in his superiors beyond his friendships with Petrel/Proton (To an extent) , so remaining with TR was more of a matter of a combo. of pragmatic action and spite towards the establishment. When Mew, Valarie, Lindworm, Emily, and a whole bunch of other characters started to re-awaken his principles/'heroic' Dragon spirit (In a Ancient Greek sense of the word), though, and his general viewpoint of him being 'disposable/exploitable' by da Boss, he pretty much no longer wanted anything to do with TR, and so got when the getting was good. Right now, so long as Giovanni and his merry mobsters don't piss in his cornflakes, Reiner's content to ignore them or sick their enemies at them to keep them from chasing after him instead, and that's pretty much the end of that.

Arial....well, prior to having his brains blended and/or broken, he was a criminal by necessity, desperation, and just general loathing of his fellow man, and afterwards he did crime more for the thrill of it and....well, just because. He got involved with TR against his will by blatantly getting conscripted after trying to mug Giovanni of all people (If I recall correctly) and impressing the man enough to spar your life and use it as he sees fit. He had no Loyalty to the organization beyond 'Please don't kill me or cut my pay' due to being roped in, and his generally maverick.....everything and misanthropy more or less prevented him from making any meaningful attachment to the mobsters. Once he got Riza in his life and his fill of wacky dangerous adventure and a safe way out of TR, though, he would obviously jump at the chance to be a free man once more, as all the benefits in the world under Giovanni's care don't compare to his personal freedom and living happily ever after with his family. He's an insane man that has an overabundance of humor and a distinct lack of tact, but he's a simple man at heart, and doesn't really want much beyond Freedom, Love, and Living Good.

Weavile.....he's always been a bad kitty. He's been stealing, wheeling, and dealing ever since he was a Sneasil, so much so it reflected onto him as becoming by becoming his Ability Pickpocket. The black cat always wanted to gather as much resources/wealth as he could so he could either cash it in later to benefit himself, or just luxuriate in his ill gotten gains. He's cool, suave, refined, and has his own set of standards, modeling himself as a Gentleman's Thief or a Baron Robber, but at the end of the day is willing to completely abandon all pretenses to be as cut throat, horrible, ruthless, and pragmatic as possible in order to get what he wants/needs and further his own goals. He's a Predator by preferance, but a predator none the less.

Becoming partners/friends with Reiner helped balance him out greatly, as his Loyalty/Happiness towards them greatly parred down his amoral tendacies and naturally influenced to be more like his partner he looks so much up too. It never got rid of his core desire/morals of being a Criminal/Thief, though. It only override it. Had Reiner actually trained/bonded with the outside of TR and any bad influences, perhaps eventually they would become truly more noble and less blatantly conniving, and become an unwavering ally on the same wavelength as his partner at most of all times.

However....well, Taylor and TR happened. Taylor was a MAJOR motivation/inspiration for continuing being his bad thieving self and become more like her than Reiner in that aspect of himself. When she left him/Reiner behind, though, it left a gap in him that any other sufficiently influential figure could slip into and....well, influence him. And that's where Team Rocket comes in. Joining up with Team Rocket and becoming what amounted to a professional thief/rouge, so it served to fill that hole right up nice and dandy, and since Reiner was giving his tacit approval of TR by joining/working with the in the first place, it only served to cement his core values of being a Criminal Thief. After spending a couple of years as a member of TR with it going on the whole great for him/Reiner (Heck, it enable the opportunity for him to Evolve in the first place!), seeing that his/Reiner's future in the mob would bright indeed (Becoming an Executive, Getting Revenge, Taking Over Blackthorn, Living the High Life and still having all the Thrill), and up until now have been getting every signal/lesson that being a classy criminal was a-okay.......

You get the picture.

So imagine, over the course of one single week, everything you've dreamt up with your partner was just smashed to pieces. What's more, your partner has suddenly had a change of heart that ends up spitting all over the ideals you have come to accept as 'right and okay' and though until then that they held too. Finally, even when there is a more than good chance that everything can still be good if they made the right choice(s), your partner has seemingly decided to abandon all sense of logic, safety, and concern by picking the harshest and craziest choice of action possible that would only bring them more pain than good in the near and far future, all out of a sense of principle that seems wrong and stupid to you. 

Now, let's add to the mix that he has learned at some point full well whom was responsible for said disaster above, and has to have put up with their machinations to undo everything he though was good or just cause nothing but trouble. Given his that they basically took a torch to his/his partner's dreams/good future and were actively leading them astray/to ruin (from his perspective), a less than cuddly attitude towards those that try to fuck him/his own over (and in general to those than are not in his circle), and has constantly had to deal with said stress/bullshit/them on a 24/7 basis while keeping it all bottled up to not and worry his partner....

That's a recipie for a fiery, seething hatred of those responsible, which are unfortunately in his eyes Dragonstrike, Mew, and Zuryk. He also dislikes me to a lesser extent, but due to his understanding of how his universe works (Its and everything in it is basically a part of me), he can't really sustain any passionate hatred of me in general (Specific instances, though.....). So when the time comes for Reiner to actually leave everything behind and Dragonstrike pokes into his business again, he just basically blew up and decided 'THAT IS NOT OKAY! Fuck it, I'm DONE!' , and decided to make Dragonstrike/Mew responsible/burdened for breaking the news as an act of defiance/retribution (as he knows that will have actual negative consequences on them), and maybe perhaps actually get Reiner to 'Come back to the Dark Side' instead of committing to what he thinks is just a fool's way of doing the things they want.

And....that's it. That's the full explanation as to why Weavile decided to pull a Face Heel Turn on everyone. Feel free to pick this apart and debate the merits of mine/his logic as you may, but what's done is done. He's not simply going to follow along with Reiner's current plans, as he both wants himself and Reiner to remains a TR member and benefit from it, and he's because had enough of our bullshit that was our campaign.

(05-27-2019, 12:24 PM)Spiritmon Wrote:

Spoiler

(05-27-2019, 07:36 AM)Lord Windos Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 05:53 AM)Spiritmon Wrote:

(05-27-2019, 05:40 AM)Dragonstrike Wrote:

Spoiler

...Reiner and I can't ever seem to catch a break...*sigh*...

...that's certainly going to alter things drastically...

Spoiler

So...he going to stay in Team Rocket to stay with Weavile? I was about to say a few things to the burglar cat, but I supose he can only can only communicate to you via Reiner connection.

Besides, I supose he would ignore me completely too. So its up to you now mate. But its not a little overkill @Lord Windos? I mean...Reiner already had more than enough suffer in this journey, and see horrors most people would have their will demolished. Weavile cant see his best friend just want to find peace, and have the Rockets with him despite the perks, would only make things far worse?

Heck, even Arial who is the most questionable moral decided to turn the leaf and leave behind Team Rocket. And thanks Arceus none of his Pokemon abbandoned. As a best friend, Weavile should not speak with Reiner but also understand Reiner reasons of leaving Team Rocket behind?

.....I know this is not problem, but...I do know how it is almost loosing a precious partneer (looking to Gaspar death) so I sympathy with Reiner/Dragonstrike case. Maybe its not so permanent like death, but it is something who will make them never see each other ever again.

He can communicate with anyone of us, but only if we get into contact with him first. He can answer our calls, but not make them himself, so to speak. Of course, its like you said too: he doesn't have to answer back if he don't want to, and that's very likely the case with Reiner. With Arial....I dunno, I guess he'll humor you, but he doesn't have a reason to talk with you at any length either beyond 'Don't bug me unless it's something important' , and he'll likely just start ignoring you if you bring up Reiner/Dragonstrike at all for the time being, so...yeah.

Weavile.....you have to understand something about him that sets him apart from Reiner and Arial: He's always been through and through thief and criminal, and would always like to remain that way. 

Reiner has always been an Ubersmensch/Rebellious Dragon Tamer that just chooses to follow the rules at his pleasure, and Team Rocket was just an opportunity for him to use in order to strengthen himself and his partners + get more resources to stick it to The Elders back home. He didn't really believe in Team Rocket's ideology or have any Loyalty in his superiors beyond his friendships with Petrel/Proton (To an extent) , so remaining with TR was more of a matter of a combo. of pragmatic action and spite towards the establishment. When Mew, Valarie, Lindworm, Emily, and a whole bunch of other characters started to re-awaken his principles/'heroic' Dragon spirit (In a Ancient Greek sense of the word), though, and his general viewpoint of him being 'disposable/exploitable' by da Boss, he pretty much no longer wanted anything to do with TR, and so got when the getting was good. Right now, so long as Giovanni and his merry mobsters don't piss in his cornflakes, Reiner's content to ignore them or sick their enemies at them to keep them from chasing after him instead, and that's pretty much the end of that.

Arial....well, prior to having his brains blended and/or broken, he was a criminal by necessity, desperation, and just general loathing of his fellow man, and afterwards he did crime more for the thrill of it and....well, just because. He got involved with TR against his will by blatantly getting conscripted after trying to mug Giovanni of all people (If I recall correctly) and impressing the man enough to spar your life and use it as he sees fit. He had no Loyalty to the organization beyond 'Please don't kill me or cut my pay' due to being roped in, and his generally maverick.....everything and misanthropy more or less prevented him from making any meaningful attachment to the mobsters. Once he got Riza in his life and his fill of wacky dangerous adventure and a safe way out of TR, though, he would obviously jump at the chance to be a free man once more, as all the benefits in the world under Giovanni's care don't compare to his personal freedom and living happily ever after with his family. He's an insane man that has an overabundance of humor and a distinct lack of tact, but he's a simple man at heart, and doesn't really want much beyond Freedom, Love, and Living Good.

Weavile.....he's always been a bad kitty. He's been stealing, wheeling, and dealing ever since he was a Sneasil, so much so it reflected onto him as becoming by becoming his Ability Pickpocket. The black cat always wanted to gather as much resources/wealth as he could so he could either cash it in later to benefit himself, or just luxuriate in his ill gotten gains. He's cool, suave, refined, and has his own set of standards, modeling himself as a Gentleman's Thief or a Baron Robber, but at the end of the day is willing to completely abandon all pretenses to be as cut throat, horrible, ruthless, and pragmatic as possible in order to get what he wants/needs and further his own goals. He's a Predator by preferance, but a predator none the less.

Becoming partners/friends with Reiner helped balance him out greatly, as his Loyalty/Happiness towards them greatly parred down his amoral tendacies and naturally influenced to be more like his partner he looks so much up too. It never got rid of his core desire/morals of being a Criminal/Thief, though. It only override it. Had Reiner actually trained/bonded with the outside of TR and any bad influences, perhaps eventually they would become truly more noble and less blatantly conniving, and become an unwavering ally on the same wavelength as his partner at most of all times.

However....well, Taylor and TR happened. Taylor was a MAJOR motivation/inspiration for continuing being his bad thieving self and become more like her than Reiner in that aspect of himself. When she left him/Reiner behind, though, it left a gap in him that any other sufficiently influential figure could slip into and....well, influence him. And that's where Team Rocket comes in. Joining up with Team Rocket and becoming what amounted to a professional thief/rouge, so it served to fill that hole right up nice and dandy, and since Reiner was giving his tacit approval of TR by joining/working with the in the first place, it only served to cement his core values of being a Criminal Thief. After spending a couple of years as a member of TR with it going on the whole great for him/Reiner (Heck, it enable the opportunity for him to Evolve in the first place!), seeing that his/Reiner's future in the mob would bright indeed (Becoming an Executive, Getting Revenge, Taking Over Blackthorn, Living the High Life and still having all the Thrill), and up until now have been getting every signal/lesson that being a classy criminal was a-okay.......

You get the picture.

So imagine, over the course of one single week, everything you've dreamt up with your partner was just smashed to pieces. What's more, your partner has suddenly had a change of heart that ends up spitting all over the ideals you have come to accept as 'right and okay' and though until then that they held too. Finally, even when there is a more than good chance that everything can still be good if they made the right choice(s), your partner has seemingly decided to abandon all sense of logic, safety, and concern by picking the harshest and craziest choice of action possible that would only bring them more pain than good in the near and far future, all out of a sense of principle that seems wrong and stupid to you. 

Now, let's add to the mix that he has learned at some point full well whom was responsible for said disaster above, and has to have put up with their machinations to undo everything he though was good or just cause nothing but trouble. Given his that they basically took a torch to his/his partner's dreams/good future and were actively leading them astray/to ruin (from his perspective), a less than cuddly attitude towards those that try to fuck him/his own over (and in general to those than are not in his circle), and has constantly had to deal with said stress/bullshit/them on a 24/7 basis while keeping it all bottled up to not and worry his partner....

That's a recipie for a fiery, seething hatred of those responsible, which are unfortunately in his eyes Dragonstrike, Mew, and Zuryk. He also dislikes me to a lesser extent, but due to his understanding of how his universe works (Its and everything in it is basically a part of me), he can't really sustain any passionate hatred of me in general (Specific instances, though.....). So when the time comes for Reiner to actually leave everything behind and Dragonstrike pokes into his business again, he just basically blew up and decided 'THAT IS NOT OKAY! Fuck it, I'm DONE!' , and decided to make Dragonstrike/Mew responsible/burdened for breaking the news as an act of defiance/retribution (as he knows that will have actual negative consequences on them), and maybe perhaps actually get Reiner to 'Come back to the Dark Side' instead of committing to what he thinks is just a fool's way of doing the things they want.

And....that's it. That's the full explanation as to why Weavile decided to pull a Face Heel Turn on everyone. Feel free to pick this apart and debate the merits of mine/his logic as you may, but what's done is done. He's not simply going to follow along with Reiner's current plans, as he both wants himself and Reiner to remains a TR member and benefit from it, and he's because had enough of our bullshit that was our campaign.

Another determined important event who make Arial has a change of heart was Reiner and everyone risking their lifes to save someone has him from the hands of the vampire. Despite he be a true jerk and a assrole to Reiner, he hear from Reiner lips he is part of the team and they protect their own, kinda make Arial see things from another pespective. But the last important event was Gaspar death, who make him become more mature(even if little) and have a more consciounouss mind with the importance of each life. When he see the opportunity of leave the Rockets for real, he couldnt resist the plan route, and grab its golden chance.

I supose towards me he has some hatred too, although Arial is my choosen one, I kinda have helped a little with Reiner case, so he might held some grudge against my person too. I kinda understand Weavile reasons, but like Dragonstrike mentioned, this put him in a difficult situation since this could bring the ring on Team Rocket that his agent is still alive and trying to escape from the scene. This for a extension this put Arial too in a difficult situation, since they would find out Arial is also alive, and escape from bellow their noses, and around in Tandor. Giovanni would have ways in make Arial pay.

If you need some help help Dragonstrike, ask me. I dont know what I can help, but I will do what is necessary and needed to help in Weavile and Reiner parthship.