[Meta thread] Iron's PokeRole Adventure: The Skull Ruins

[Lord Windos]

Spoiler

Can't you see my perspective? You, Lord Windos, made the choice to have Ventus be fearful over Orthros despite all evidence to the contrary. I made it known that players have the right to whatever party they choose. All drama from that has been a direct result of the paranoia you chose to give Ventus.

I will stand my ground over this, because one or the other of you has to change, and I've been crystal clear all along that Nathan has the right to whatever party. It would be 100% unfair of me to change that. If you choose to make your character suffer over it, that's on you, not him.

Imagine if Nathan decided he didn't like tweed jackets - why would the onus be on you to not have tweed jackets anymore? Or take your unruly Arbok or your habit of hunting Pokemon as a real world example - Nathan doesn't have the right to stop you from either. Mechanics trumps personality. 

If swapping out Ventus is the best solution, fine. You should be able to play a character you enjoy. I've always been happy to work with you to give Ventus plenty of opportunities to realistically change his mind. I will say that there is an opportunity for some of that coming up in the Secret Library, and another one I already have planned for a bit after that. Both are likely to be before a Delta Houndoomite is found, and I think it would be a reasonable compromise for me to commit to that timing IF it will help. So never let it be said you don't have any choices. If anyone screws you over, it's you.

*Sighs* Yes, I perfectly well understand your perspective. I'm not unreasonable or ignorant of that, and in other circumstance I would be inclined to just let this all go once more and try once again to make things work. But you also know its not that easy to undo all the hostility and parnioa I've built up in Ventus. I can't just automatically declare he likes Orthros of accepts them more, or put him on the path to liking them/greater tolerance without a good enough reason in his perspective. At this point, I don't think I CAN reasonably make him like Orthros in the timespan this campaign will allow not to leave, as his overall personality and feelings regarding Nathan's choices make it an uphill battle for the ages to change his mind.



Because of this, I'm going to have to stand my ground as well no matter what, for I know my character will not accept Mega Delta Houndoom being a possible in all but the most unlikely scenarios where Ven has a MASSIVE change of heart, which I personally believe will not happen. Nathan has a right to whatever party he wants, I agree, but I also have the right to not want to stay silent or put up with it any longer if his choices negatively affect RPing with my character. Your doing your job as a fair and moderate DM, and I respect/follow that and your rulings, but that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with them. As for my choice in making my character suffer, that only happens as a direct result of Nathan's/Dragonstrike's choices regarding Orthros, so I completely disagree with you on that point.

For the sake of argument, if Nathan didn't like Ven's choice in clothing or Aspis hunting practices so much that it would be equivicol to the drama surrounding Orthros or would approach that point, I would change or forshake that mode of behavior, because even though its a part of my character I don't believe my rights to mechanical choice supercedes that of making sure EVERYONE is have a good to semi-decent time. I'd be pissed off and grouchy because of it, and more than a little negatively disposed towards Dragonstrike for forcing my hand like so, but I would do it if it meant that the crux of the problem/drama would just end. Just as its his right to keep/do with Orthros whatever he pleases, its also his right to choose not to do certain things if he knows that it would just cause problems for others that can't be easily solved. At any point in time he could simply choose not pursue the Mega Delta Stone instead of forcing my hand and having Ven leave to prevent a violent confrontation between character, or simply hold off on getting it until post game when it doesn't nearly matter as much what a character does or does not have. Its not like he doesn't have other Pokémon that could fill in the Mega Slot, like his partner Ralts or Calam, that he desperately needs that Mega Stone.

Is that unfair ? If I ask it of him, yes, but I'm not asking him or forcing him to do anything beyond complaining about how much it will suck for my character/me. Is it strong arming or bullying of me to suggest/imply he'd not make DM protected choices that cause me no end of headaches to have to deal with? No, because again I'm not forcing anyone to change their plans. Nobody is forced to do anything, save for following the rules and finding some way to make do! But I've unwittingly set up my character for a massive fall for just staying true to his characterization and not finding some way to fully accept Nathan's choices in character from the very beginning, and he's poised to push Ven right over the edge into oblivion if he stays his course. Is that fair? Perhaps so since I'm the one that set up that situation due to the reactions/personality I decided my character to have, but that doesn't mean its a feels like it on my end of the deal.

Its endlessly frustrating to both accept and not accept Dragonstrike's choices with Orthros, as no matter what the outcome of it I still feel like shit about it. If he stays his course, then I accept and respect his choice because that's fair, right, and he gets to have a good time, but I don't like it since it causes me grief through Ventus and makes me have to take drastic measure to fix it. If he changes his mind, then Ventus no longer will have a massive shitfit and the party can stay together, but I'm deprieved him of something he's wanted for ages and made him and most likely you dislike me in the process.  Its Morton's Fork at its finest: no matter the outcome, I STILL lose. This is only true if Ven can't find a way to accept Othros/Mega Delta Houndoom, but as I said I don't think that's possible at this juncture, so thems the breaks...

I appreciate that you are willing to help Ventus out even after all the drama that's been caused because I decided he had an irrational fear/hatred of Orthros and all things like him, but I just don't think anything will change his mind about that doggy. Even if we did overcome that problem and moved on without DRAMA!, I imagine that the issue would just arise once more for ANOTHER reason. That's why I have to resort to bringing in another character: I just don't have faith that whatever I do with Ventus will amount to anything but more grief, and taking the argument OOC has failed for the reasons you pointed out.

Giving up on the better part of a year's worth of progress or more and shaking things up for the group is something I absolutely LOATHED to do, especially over just one bloodly simple Pokémon . But between miraculously finding a way to get Ventus to like Orthros enough not to freak out about every little thing about it and just restarting with a character that has none of my former one's and with the foresight/knowledge that I should NEVER give my character reason to quarrel with Nathan/Dragonstrike over anything serious/mechanically related (or at least not permenantly so)......well, I know which one is more feasible to me. Remove the one at fault, and the problem goes away, right? I'm willing to do that if it means that not only I can have more fun in the long run, but everyone else can as well without the Sword of Damacus looming over us at every waking moment.

If I want to be honest, while I'll enjoy the game a WHOLE lot more with my new character since he's not likely to get into fights with ANYONE but the bad guys or struggling with Dark Character in a mostly Heroic Tale, I'm most likely going to be bitter about it on some level, and feeling like an ass for the fallout that will happen to Shiva and Heart due to Ven's departure. I'll try not to hold it against Dragonstrike or you for my choices, as that's not fair or right at all (for the reasons you have well stated), and I would like to put Ven Conflicts behind me ASAP if it comes to that, but it'll take time for me to fully move on from this drama.

.....Hopefully we get along like we used to someday.

[Lord Windos]

@Lord Windos, since you did not receive the Hurtloam, would you like to join Heart to take a few Hurtloam for you character?

I don't know if Ventus will want to even touch Hurtloam unless absolutely necessary.  Can't deny how useful it's going to be, though, so we should definitely stick two people on that.

I'm thinking that we should probably just avoid Sharpedo since it's not mandatory.  It definitely knows Night Slash and has 5 Disobedience, so...

Frillish oughta be cool for whoever wants it.  Nathan will pass on that, though.

He'll probably pass on taking Chinchou too.  Notably, though, it could have Illuminate if we need another pokemon to light up dark areas.

I'll wait and see what you guys want to do before I decide on what Nathan does.

Edit: Oh yeah, and there's also the geode Raticate found. Who wants it? I kinda want to say Shiva or Heart should get it since they didn't get any valuable rocks in the first encounter set. Nathan would find it useful for helping fund the Mr. Finder stuff, though, but I'll only take it if you guys don't mind giving it to him solely to help him with that.

Nope, Ven would avoid using that stuff himself unless absolutely necessary like you said, so perhaps sticking Valder on it with Heart would be ideal to get the most Hurtloam out of it. None of the Encounters appeal to me save for the Sharkpedo, but I REALLY don't want to chance fight it with Raphael/Apsis (As the later has Aura Sphere and the former can swim) if it has Lethal Damage options available. Most likely will stick to tutoring Malphena Nasty Plot with Raphael first demonstrating/practicing the move several times to Ventus, before they try to instruct her in learning the move. Roll's Insight + Knowledge + Move Tutoring, right Iron?

EDIT: I think Heart should get the Geode, as he seems to be the one lowest on Poke out of the whole group after we all made our purchases!

[Spiritmon]

In that case....@PhantomUnderYourDesk, would you like to join with Heart to take some Hurtloam? I remember you have use one after the fight against the ground pokemon when we find that Eartpower Eremit. You can join too to get another one.

[Dragonstrike]

I don't personally think it's as hopeless as you think it is, Windos. There's plenty of material there to show Orthros isn't entirely the monster everyone is afraid of.  I think comparing Orthros to Lillipup was a great start.

And it's fine to continue to be scared and cautious of him IC for awhile too.  Even Nathan is going to be a little scared of Orthros's abilities after he evolves.  He'll be treating the hound with utmost respect and caution.  By the time Nathan can Mega Evolve Orthros, their bond should be strong enough to prevent any major issues, but he's going to be extra careful regardless because he knows Megas without that strong bond can go berserk and hurt themselves as well as those around them (the horror stories from Alola's pokedex have to come from somewhere, right?)

I've attempted to accomodate keeping Orthros a healthy distance away from Ventus while still trying to come up with new material to help make it clear he's moved on from his old life.  That he's adjusting to Nathan's lifestyle.  There's still more I can come up with, too, particularly after Orthros has evolved.

I'm trying to help solve this, and it's damn hard to do while trying to purposely not give Ventus reasons to cause unnecessary trouble.  The only missing piece is...well, actually starting on solving it.

I don't want Ventus to leave because of this, Windos, particularly since Orthros hasn't actually done anything of much note besides help win the gym battle with Dagny since he left his former pack.  I'd appreciate if you worked with me (and Iron) a little on actually fixing the problem.

I'm not changing my mind on what I want to do concerning Orthros, but don't let it be said that I'm being entirely unreasonable about it.

[Dragonstrike]

We should probably wait for Nylon to actually say if he wants one of these encounters.  I assume he's looking for a 5th party member since he purposely left a slot open in his party (and was previously interested in that Rare Pokemon encounter that turned out to be a Delta Onix)

[Lord Windos]

I don't personally think it's as hopeless as you think it is, Windos. There's plenty of material there to show Orthros isn't entirely the monster everyone is afraid of.  I think comparing Orthros to Lillipup was a great start.

And it's fine to continue to be scared and cautious of him IC for awhile too.  Even Nathan is going to be a little scared of Orthros's abilities after he evolves.  He'll be treating the hound with utmost respect and caution.  By the time Nathan can Mega Evolve Orthros, their bond should be strong enough to prevent any major issues, but he's going to be extra careful regardless because he knows Megas without that strong bond can go berserk and hurt themselves as well as those around them (the horror stories from Alola's pokedex have to come from somewhere, right?)

I've attempted to accomodate keeping Orthros a healthy distance away from Ventus while still trying to come up with new material to help make it clear he's moved on from his old life.  That he's adjusting to Nathan's lifestyle.  There's still more I can come up with, too, particularly after Orthros has evolved.

I'm trying to help solve this, and it's damn hard to do while trying to purposely not give Ventus reasons to cause unnecessary trouble.  The only missing piece is...well, actually starting on solving it.

I don't want Ventus to leave because of this, Windos, particularly since Orthros hasn't actually done anything of much note besides help win the gym battle with Dagny since he left his former pack.  I'd appreciate if you worked with me (and Iron) a little on actually fixing the problem.

I'm not changing my mind on what I want to do concerning Orthros, but don't let it be said that I'm being entirely unreasonable about it.

I think we are both being reasonable about this, mate, its just that we can't seem to find a compromise or solution that works for us both IC and OOC without a big sacrifice on either of our parts. We have our own perspectives and stakes with this issue, and we can't see eye to eye on what needs to be done to solve it. I or Ventus don't want a Mega Delta Houndoom around , but you want to have that option available for Nathan to utilize if he sees fit. That's why the best solution I see is just continuing with Ven trying to distance himself from the issue entirely, keep his comments to himself about the dog and avoid it at all cost, and then have him promptly leave when the Mega Houndoomnite is in your possession to avoid anymore fuss is necessary, since arguing about it IC or OOC literally will accomplish nothing. Its a simple, straightforward plan that's gariteed to work, and we can keep the group together as is until that Critical Point, which might not come until late, late game when my character would be ready to settle down and commit to pouring over his research in earnest. Heck, I could probably spin it to be a good thing that Ven leaves, depending on the circumstances and how I feel about it....

I'm not unwilling to work with your or Iron per say, I just don't think it will be enough in the given time frame to undo the black narl that is my character's prejudice towards Orthros; its just insurmountable in my opinion. To that end, I think we should focus on other matters than get my character to come to terms with the dog, and simply deal with the consequences as they come along. You are not going to give up the Mega Stone, I ain't going to force you to or bother you about it anymore, I think saving my character is a lost cause, and everyone would be happier in the long run if Ven was replaced with a more likable/less conflict prone character (even me, after I get over having to sacrifice them), so why waste energy/thought on the matter instead of putting it towards more productive ends?

The reason I compared Lillipup to Orthros was so that Ven's subconscious would swing his almost overwhelming seething hatred/despisement of Orthros towards fearful loathing and severe reluctance to interact with it, as his mind tried and failed to comprehend the sight he was seeing, and just settled with instilling a deep fear response to avoid the mental hazard that is Nathan/Orthros Bond (to Ventus, at least). Hatred was untenable for Ven to ALWAYS have, but fear could be worked with as a means to simply avoid confrontation about Orthros altogether and seek other methods to cope/deal with it that doesn't involve directly screwing around with anyone. Maybe there is some progress to be made along that route, but Ven wants to avoid it if at all possible due to being deeply unsettled and disturbed by your character's bond with Orthros, so....

[PhantomUnderYourDesk]

Hmm.... I indeed feel alseep, do forgive me, But at least now I'm feeling much better and am awake on 7am on a Sunday. I hope I didn't stall things? I'll get to update-read myself then. Nice to see you still on, Windos! <3

[Lord Windos]

Hmm.... I indeed feel alseep, do forgive me, But at least now I'm feeling much better and am awake on 7am on a Sunday. I hope I didn't stall things? I'll get to update-read myself then. Nice to see you still on, Windos!  <3

Nice to see you too, dearest! *Gives them a good morning hug* No, you haven't stall things at all, just need your input on what encounter you want to do, if any!

 Probably going to get offline soon to finish up studying and get some rest, but given that Ven's going to do a Tutoring Session with Malphena with Nasty Plot, my abscene won't hold anything up! Well, hopefully not!

[PhantomUnderYourDesk]

Nice to see you too, dearest! *Gives them a good morning hug* No, you haven't stall things at all, just need your input on what encounter you want to do, if any!

*returns the hug* I'll take a look at it in a moment.

[Dragonstrike]

So you're denying a chance to try and work this out?  Again?  You haven't even heard any of my other ideas yet nor seen what Iron has planned.  And believe me, I have SEVERAL ideas.

I never said it would be easy, but I don't believe it's impossible.  It's not going to get done if we don't cooperate on it, though.