[Meta thread] Iron's PokeRole Adventure: The Skull Ruins

[Dragonstrike]

EDIT: The only thing I'd houserule is that you cannot use Super Fang more than once on the same target.

I don't think you have to use it more than once on the same target anyways with that ruling.  The first use nukes their HP, vastly outdamaging almost any other attack you could possibly use because you're not rolling for the damage, drops them to -2 Pain, and then falls off hard after that point.

But by that point, the damage has been done, and you can clean up the latter half of their HP with other powerful moves, so it's not like follow up uses on the same target with Super Fang would matter.  You only need one use to get a massive advantage over your opponent, guaranteed.  

The fact that I can take Super Fang as it currently is and call it a move to universally open with in practically every matchup instead of a move that's reserved to help soften up extra bulky opponents (that's always been Super Fang's niche in the games, really.  Well, that, and giving tanky pokemon a decent damaging move, which isn't a problem in pokerole at all)...that's why I'm concerned about the balance of it not rolling for damage at all.

[Spiritmon]

Spoiler

Well, Melmetall its...a complicated one. You cant expected me to believe a Screw Pokemon exist in the Pokemon ancient history and who evolution becomes a motor Pokemon. Its more easy to believe Gyarados or Aegislash to be Legendary Pokemon, instead of this and this be mythicals. And here I thinking Arial was the guy with the loose screws.

Sometimes, I wondering if Nintendo and Gamefreak really know what they doing with their Lore. I think after XY they decided to "screw" lore and history and lets make Pokemon who doesnt make sense. But thinking better Pokemon never really care vey much in history. Only in game mechanics.

Yeah, Melmetal is kind of a weird case.  It's partially because we still don't know a great deal about it, though.

What we do know is that Melmetal has a habit of dissolving and absorbing raw metals, supposedly so it can evolve.  Melmetal, meanwhile, is apparently able to create metal out of seemingly nothing.

And thats it. Its all we know about Melmetal and Meltan. Its basically all his Lore. *Sigh* I miss the times Gamefreak make better work in making the Lore of Legendary more interesting. This is the same case of Magearna and Zerahora. They make a little more interesting Lore when have come to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, but still lacks from something interesting. And Zerahora its only a Pokemon who absorb eletricity...and thats it. Its a living battery. 


I remember you tell me I have some bias about Pokemon, but its kinda hardy not have when there is a lot of wasted potential in the main franchise. I study administration and marketing in my college, and I can see thousands of ways of Nintendo and Gamefreak increase the potential of the franchise. But if I would go outside, I would problably suffer from bias of other people saying more or less: "Brazileans are lazy and lack in work and job." Or: "They not someone you cant trust, beware!" along with other expressions. Or even "Go back back to Mexico!" Its true, I have some brazileans friends who suffer from that kind of treatment outside of the country. But I guess this is our own fault. The people of my country indeed make many mistakes and, well, we are now paying for that. No wonder we are consider a country of third world...

[Spiritmon]

Y'know this is something I've been wondering for quite some time: how the heck do pupa Pokemon, such as Kakuna or Metapod even execute the move Bug Bite?

Beats me. Its one of the things we might never know. Its like Arbok using Sucker Punch without having arms or Kyurem not learn Ice Punch (despite the fact he literally have a Ice Punch).

[Lord Windos]

Lemme just do a little math here to show how powerful a fixed damage Super Fang is.

Let's assume the target has 5 base HP, 3 Vit, and is typeless.  Let's also assume the attacker has 5 Str.

Super Fang as is does 4 Damage on the first use.  To match that damage, you need a damage roll of 8 after Defense is applied.

8 + 3 Def - 5 Str = the move has to have at least 6 Power, buffs from items included.  I have to effectively use a STAB Fire Blast to match Super Fang's power against a 3 Vit target.

It's hard to get to total damage rolls with that many dice in them, and Super Fang currently outclasses all but the most ridiculously powerful attacks from a max Strength character.  Only on the first use, but no other move in the game can guarantee your opponent is inflicted with -2 Pain in one move, which is dang strong regardless of how bulky the target is.

Mate, I already am aware of the power of Super Fang, as erasing 1/2 HP is always going to be a significant advantage over a Move that has its damaged Roll. Its the same thing that makes it and (To an extent) OHKOs , Destiny Bond, and Grudge useful, and Dragon Rage moderately so (Hey, if you have a Target with 4 or less HP left, just use it twice and only gamble on the Accuracy Roll), and why they are desirable.

You're not accounting for Move Effects on some Moves, Buffs and Debuffs in general, Abilities/Crits/SE Damage that affect the Damage Dice of others, or, perhaps most signficantly, Recovery. Move Effects like Burn, Poison, Block Damage, Flinch, Always Accurate etc. can make using a Move more desirable to use over SF in scenarios, Buffs and Debuffs enhances Damage + is lasting help against all enemies per Encounter (In buffs case), Abilities/Crits/And SE Damage can end up making Damaging Moves deal more Damage on average than SF, and Healing like Potions, Recovery Moves, etc. can be employed to instantly revert SF's Damage, while a Move's Effects/Self Buffs or Debuffs on Target will remain.

There's also the fact that if you know a Pokemon has Super Fang or a Damage Ignoring Move, then you/the NPC can always have the conditional orders to have their Pokemon drop everything and Dodge it/Use a Barrier Move, or make a strategy to overcome SF then go back to standard operating procedure. An semi example of this is Terra's battle against Brazen: Once I knew I was facing a Klefki with Michael, I tried (And Failed) to minimize the impact of them using Heal Block, then immediately switched out for Lapis to Wrap and trap the annoying key chain to out tank/grind it away while waiting for HB to go away so I could heal Michael again/let him have his regen later. An example of a strat against SF is simply using a Ghost type, trap and burst down the SFer ASAP and then heal up, Disabling it, inflicting nasty Status.......I could go on.

My point still stands from earlier: Super Fang is perfectly fine as it is, and that its not OP or gamebreaking as you believe. If there are to be nerfs, then don't hit its Damage but either its Accuracy or usage per Encounter first. Or just make it so that it can't be used in regular Trainer Battles, as using it against the common folk is 'unfair', but against the Elite Four and Bo? If they don't have strats, Plot Devices, or Evasion out the wazoo to defend against such attacks, then they deserve getting taken down with such attacks.

[Dragonstrike]

And thats it. Its all we know about Melmetal and Meltan. Its basically all his Lore. *Sigh* I miss the times Gamefreak make better work in making the Lore of Legendary more interesting. This is the same case of Magearna and Zerahora. They make a little more interesting Lore when have come to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, but still lacks from something interesting. And Zerahora its only a Pokemon who absorb eletricity...and thats it. Its a living battery. 

Mythicals typically get more lore when they either a) show up in in-game events (which are currently on hiatus as far as we know) or b) are featured in one of the movies.  Magearna actually has quite a lot of lore, but you have to watch the Volcanion movie to see it in action.  Marshadow and Zeraora were actually featured in the first two reboot movies.  For all we know, Meltan and Melmetal might show up in the next one (which is a reboot of the very first pokemon movie).

So yeah.  Most of the lore for mythicals comes from the Pokemon Anime these days.  And since Meltan and Melmetal haven't been in the anime yet, that means we only have those 2 pokedex entries to go off of so far.

Y'know this is something I've been wondering for quite some time: how the heck do pupa Pokemon, such as Kakuna or Metapod even execute the move Bug Bite?

Beats me. Its one of the things we might never know. Its like Arbok using Sucker Punch without having arms or Kyurem not learn Ice Punch (despite the fact he literally have a Ice Punch).

Sucker Punch actually isn't a punching attack.  Its Japanese name directly translates to 'surprise attack' (a much more general name), which is why many pokemon without hands can learn it.  It's also the most common example of a move's actual interpretation getting somewhat lost in translation.

Kyurem can't learn Ice Punch because base Kyurem and White Kyurem don't punch things (I don't think base Kyurem is even capable of punching things with those short arms...).  Yeah, Black Kyurem probably could, but since they all share the same movepool (with slight alterations), things need to be kept consistent for all of them, I imagine.

[Dragonstrike]

Spoiler

Mate, I already am aware of the power of Super Fang, as erasing 1/2 HP is always going to be a significant advantage over a Move that has its damaged Roll. Its the same thing that makes it and (To an extent) OHKOs , Destiny Bond, and Grudge useful, and Dragon Rage moderately so (Hey, if you have a Target with 4 or less HP left, just use it twice and only gamble on the Accuracy Roll), and why they are desirable.

You're not accounting for Move Effects on some Moves, Buffs and Debuffs in general, Abilities/Crits/SE Damage that affect the Damage Dice of others, or, perhaps most signficantly, Recovery. Move Effects like Burn, Poison, Block Damage, Flinch, Always Accurate etc. can make using a Move more desirable to use over SF in scenarios, Buffs and Debuffs enhances Damage + is lasting help against all enemies per Encounter (In buffs case), Abilities/Crits/And SE Damage can end up making Damaging Moves deal more Damage on average than SF, and Healing like Potions, Recovery Moves, etc. can be employed to instantly revert SF's Damage, while a Move's Effects/Self Buffs or Debuffs on Target will remain.

There's also the fact that if you know a Pokemon has Super Fang or a Damage Ignoring Move, then you/the NPC can always have the conditional orders to have their Pokemon drop everything and Dodge it/Use a Barrier Move, or make a strategy to overcome SF then go back to standard operating procedure. An semi example of this is Terra's battle against Brazen: Once I knew I was facing a Klefki with Michael, I tried (And Failed) to minimize the impact of them using Heal Block, then immediately switched out for Lapis to Wrap and trap the annoying key chain to out tank/grind it away while waiting for HB to go away so I could heal Michael again/let him have his regen later. An example of a strat against SF is simply using a Ghost type, trap and burst down the SFer ASAP and then heal up, Disabling it, inflicting nasty Status.......I could go on.

My point still stands from earlier: Super Fang is perfectly fine as it is, and that its not OP or gamebreaking as you believe. If there are to be nerfs, then don't hit its Damage but either its Accuracy or usage per Encounter first. Or just make it so that it can't be used in regular Trainer Battles, as using it against the common folk is 'unfair', but against the Elite Four and Bo? If they don't have strats, Plot Devices, or Evasion out the wazoo to defend against such attacks, then they deserve getting taken down with such attacks.

Dragon Rage isn't as much of a problem because it was originally designed that way.  Yeah, it's scary if you're really low on HP/didn't have much to begin with, but that's always been its gimmick.  Same with all those other moves, just to a more extreme degree.

The whole reason I'm pushing this is Super Fang not rolling damage doesn't appear to me to be how the move was originally intended to work in Pokerole, and it might put a lot of strain on the system as a result.  Sure, there are ways you can play around it, but doing so can have a very unhealthy effect on how you play against the SF user in question.  If you heal with a Potion, then your Potion effectiveness is halved, which means it's harder to heal the next time you get slammed by Super Fang (or just later in the day, for that matter, if all your opponent is trying to do is annoy and cripple you so you have to waste resources on healing.  Spira's probably got that exact problem atm with Hida, in fact), which means you have to spend at least one action neutralizing the threat of Super Fang in some manner (disable the move, KO the pokemon, send in the obvious Ghost type switch in...), which generally gives the SF user more momentum.  If you Evade, you need to have enough dice to outdo that accuracy pool, and Evading is a hard, all or nothing thing to achieve which can be easily exploited if your opponent gets to Evade happy (and SF isn't an easy move to avoid since it only has -1 accuracy).

I'm not considering other move effects because all Super Fang does is damage, and I'm not including crits because crits aren't always a reliable thing, and I'm not including SE damage because I'm putting the example in a vacuum.  If you're using Super Fang, your softening up your target so you can either KO them or reduce their HP without KOing them, and doing 4+ damage isn't meant to be a reliable thing in the original system without exploiting weaknesses or having incredibly powerful attacks. If all you want from an attack is raw damage, then anything else is just a bonus.


I'm not sure using Lapis is necessarily a good example of outplaying your opponent, given that not many trainers are going to be prepared to suddenly be facing a pokemon with over 20 HP.  Yeah, you outtanked someone by using one of the bulkiest pokemon in the game.  The strategy was sound, but the outcome wasn't exactly surprising.



I've said it twice already, but I'm saying it again: I'm fine with whatever Iron rules on this.  But I'm stating my opinion and what evidence I have to support it here so that the decision can be informed.  Rolling damage or not, it's not going to be hard to remember which ruling we're using.

[Spiritmon]

Spoiler

And thats it. Its all we know about Melmetal and Meltan. Its basically all his Lore. *Sigh* I miss the times Gamefreak make better work in making the Lore of Legendary more interesting. This is the same case of Magearna and Zerahora. They make a little more interesting Lore when have come to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, but still lacks from something interesting. And Zerahora its only a Pokemon who absorb eletricity...and thats it. Its a living battery. 

Mythicals typically get more lore when they either a) show up in in-game events (which are currently on hiatus as far as we know) or b) are featured in one of the movies.  Magearna actually has quite a lot of lore, but you have to watch the Volcanion movie to see it in action.  Marshadow and Zeraora were actually featured in the first two reboot movies.  For all we know, Meltan and Melmetal might show up in the next one (which is a reboot of the very first pokemon movie).

So yeah.  Most of the lore for mythicals comes from the Pokemon Anime these days.  And since Meltan and Melmetal haven't been in the anime yet, that means we only have those 2 pokedex entries to go off of so far.

Y'know this is something I've been wondering for quite some time: how the heck do pupa Pokemon, such as Kakuna or Metapod even execute the move Bug Bite?

Beats me. Its one of the things we might never know. Its like Arbok using Sucker Punch without having arms or Kyurem not learn Ice Punch (despite the fact he literally have a Ice Punch).

Sucker Punch actually isn't a punching attack.  Its Japanese name directly translates to 'surprise attack' (a much more general name), which is why many pokemon without hands can learn it.  It's also the most common example of a move's actual interpretation getting somewhat lost in translation.

Kyurem can't learn Ice Punch because base Kyurem and White Kyurem don't punch things (I don't think base Kyurem is even capable of punching things with those short arms...).  Yeah, Black Kyurem probably could, but since they all share the same movepool (with slight alterations), things need to be kept consistent for all of them, I imagine.

*Roll eyes* Problem is the Pokemon movies and anime its something...also complicated. First of all: As much the anime I heard have become a little more better, after the Kalos League and change of animation the Anime ruined any chance of me in watch, so there is zero percent of chance of me watch it. The movies I try to watch them after the Diamond ane Pearl movies (the ones who appear Darkrai, Palkia, Dialga, Giratina and Arceus) was "interesting", but not to much in my opinion. Sometimes the story is too much long, and sometimes they dont give some explanation or backstory to the pokemon, at least not "that" interesting. 

I try to watch the Kyurem movie, and man, I didnt have anymore patience to continue watching. Hoopa movie? Only the first part then I give up because I was out of patience to the story actually go foward.

Thing is, I dont have anymore patience to watch a whole Pokemon Movie or the will to watch the anime Pokemon. Call me a hater, but thats how I feel.

Thats why I prefer the games. Its where we can find the backstory for ourselves.

*Facepalm* And that translation not gonna say anything about the lost interpretation of the translators to translate "Surprise Attack" and still keep the error for other generation. Lets leave at that.

Thats makes sense. Maybe with such short arms he could never really punch things.

[PhantomUnderYourDesk]

Can we please then STOP discussing things about Super Fang and just leave things be for now? It's starting to get riduculus and it already feels unnecessary.

[Lord Windos]

Spoiler

Dragon Rage isn't as much of a problem because it was originally designed that way.  Yeah, it's scary if you're really low on HP/didn't have much to begin with, but that's always been its gimmick.  Same with all those other moves, just to a more extreme degree.

The whole reason I'm pushing this is Super Fang not rolling damage doesn't appear to me to be how the move was originally intended to work in Pokerole, and it might put a lot of strain on the system as a result.  Sure, there are ways you can play around it, but doing so can have a very unhealthy effect on how you play against the SF user in question.  If you heal with a Potion, then your Potion effectiveness is halved, which means it's harder to heal the next time you get slammed by Super Fang (or just later in the day, for that matter, if all your opponent is trying to do is annoy and cripple you so you have to waste resources on healing.  Spira's probably got that exact problem atm with Hida, in fact), which means you have to spend at least one action neutralizing the threat of Super Fang in some manner (disable the move, KO the pokemon, send in the obvious Ghost type switch in...), which generally gives the SF user more momentum.  If you Evade, you need to have enough dice to outdo that accuracy pool, and Evading is a hard, all or nothing thing to achieve which can be easily exploited if your opponent gets to Evade happy (and SF isn't an easy move to avoid since it only has -1 accuracy).

I'm not considering other move effects because all Super Fang does is damage, and I'm not including crits because crits aren't always a reliable thing, and I'm not including SE damage because I'm putting the example in a vacuum.  If you're using Super Fang, your softening up your target so you can either KO them or reduce their HP without KOing them, and doing 4+ damage isn't meant to be a reliable thing in the original system without exploiting weaknesses or having incredibly powerful attacks.  If all you want from an attack is raw damage, then anything else is just a bonus.


I'm not sure using Lapis is necessarily a good example of outplaying your opponent, given that not many trainers are going to be prepared to suddenly be facing a pokemon with over 20 HP.  Yeah, you outtanked someone by using one of the bulkiest pokemon in the game.  The strategy was sound, but the outcome wasn't exactly surprising.



I've said it twice already, but I'm saying it again: I'm fine with whatever Iron rules on this.  But I'm stating my opinion and what evidence I have to support it here so that the decision can be informed.  Rolling damage or not, it's not going to be hard to remember which ruling we're using.

Mate, its clear we both have different positions on Super Fang, and at this point we are talking past each other. I want Super Fang as is because its more useful, fun, and is generally not a problem for anyone if prepared for (I'm all about 'The onus is on the attackie, not attacker'). Your stance is Super Fang is too powerful as it is, and needs to be reworked so that there is no risk of it breaking the system or becoming overcentralizing. We have polar opposite viewpoints, and since debating with each other isn't doing anything, we might as well just....stop it.

I'll bring up a few last points, though, just for the sake of completeness.

- One Super Fang can be matched or outdone by High Damaging Moves, even if we disregard all the factors that can make HDMs more potent. Two Super Fangs will never be as effect compared to two-three HMDs, and against low HP Pokemon its straight up better to just go with HMDs to have the chance to deal more than 1/2 HP.
- Super Fang being overcentralizing argument could also be applied to Priority Moves in general, as well as HP Recovery Moves, Always Accurate Moves Damage Buffs like Nasty Plot, Tutored Moves/TMs, and Flinching/Sleep hax. Priority ignores Initiatives and can apply Pain ASAP, HP Recovery Moves ignores Potion Effectiveness and can make Pokemon more tanky than they normally would be, Always Accurate means you literally don't have to worry about the Accuracy Dice unless Pain or Evasion would make them relevant, Damage/Dice Buffs will almost always be used ASAP to gain semi perma advantage for an Encounter, Tutored Moves/TMs grant Pokemon Moves grant Moves that overcome their inherent weaknesses/limitations to make them well rounded, and Flinching/Sleep in general just takes away Actions on the inflicted part, the later so much so that it was reworked so that the Sleep Roll is done before their every Action instead of at the end of Round. All the above can be argued to be 'too powerful' , but in the end they are in fact perfectly okay, balanced, and ultimately not detrimental to the game on a whole, as I believe Super Fang to be as well.
- As I briefly mentioned beforehand, Super Fang is essentially an OHKO Move that only halves HP instead of taking away all of it, and with a lesser Accuracy Penalty as a benefit for that. Since Iron gave the a-okay for OHKO despite them strictly speaking being even more 'broken' within the limits he defined for their legal use, then Super Fang by all rights should be afforded the same leeway.
-I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but if SF is 'too good' as it is now, just nerf its Accuracy by 3 or 4, giving it - 4 or - 5 Accuracy like Zap Cannon/Inferno/Dynamic Punch (Which are pretty dang good like SF too). If the Accu is so low that you can't reliably use it/use it at ALL in a chain of Actions larger than 2 or 3, then the Super Fang users are taking a risks and giving the opponents more Actions they are to pull of their plan of action. Which, in essence, is a downside that would 'balance' out SF, making its usage either limited, situational, or both, but not defeat its purpose like rolling out its Damage would.

That's all I have to say about this topic, and I'll restate my stance the last time: Don't change Super Fang, or only change it in ways that doesn't undermine it completely. I'm fine with Iron's ruling of the Move as is, and don't have a keen appreciation on it changing, nor others pseudo advocating its change by presenting evidence that makes Super Fang look worse of a problem that it really is. Which is why I felt the need to present my own arguments and evidence in order to make sure Super Fang has support for its current version, and so that your argument was not the only thing influencing its final fate in a course that would see it made obsolete .

[Lord Windos]

Can we please then STOP discussing things about Super Fang and just leave things be for now? It's starting to get riduculus and it already feels unnecessary.

I'm planning to do just that, dear. Sorry for making you feel so uncomfortable about it, but I couldn't let my side of the argument go unrepresented, especially since the outcome of the debate has ramification for 3/5 of the current party as of now, and everyone else if they choose to pursue learning the Move.