[Meta thread] Iron's PokeRole Adventure: The Skull Ruins

[PhantomUnderYourDesk]

So what? She still prefers respectful distance to Apsis, Braixen hates Ventus and Shiva might faint in shock after seeing Nidorino with Poison Point.

[Dragonstrike]

Psychic Dark its not very much effective against Steel type :3

Dark doesn't care about Steel anyways since only Dark, Fighting, and Fairy resist it.

So what? She still prefers respectful distance to Apsis, Braixen hates Ventus and Shiva might faint in shock after seeing Nidorino with Poison Point.

It' not just about the pokemon, though.  This is a rather severe blow to Nathan's confidence, too.  Now that he knows what she thinks of Delta Species, and after seeing how she's reacted to a simple Rotom that clearly isn't going to cause any of the problems she's worried about, he's now REALLY worried about how she'll react to Orthros...

And if he can't get someone he considers a friend to at least tolerate a pokemon surrounded in paranoia, how is he going to do the same for a wider audience?

[Lord Windos]

Well, now that's two pokemon in Nathan's pool that Shiva doesn't like (once I actually get Rotom, that is).  Neither of which are likely to cause any long term problems as far as Shiva and her pokemon are concerned...*sigh*...

They could, if either Rotom or Orthros causes Shiva to experience a mental breakdown/panic attack if their respective actions or effects pushes her over the edge. Remember how she almost contemplated suicide just because of a misunderstanding? Imagine how she'll react when its revealed that Nathan has been harboring something that is literraly a nightmare come true for her, or if Rotom decided to be extra mischevious and screw around with her electronics. There is also the fact that Kyu and Gothitelle would most likely not appreciate either of the Disobedient Pokémon , the former due to being hunted by them, and the later because of their personality towards threatening beings....

So what? She still prefers respectful distance to Apsis, Braixen hates Ventus and Shiva might faint in shock after seeing Nidorino with Poison Point.

It' not just about the pokemon, though.  This is a rather severe blow to Nathan's confidence, too.  Now that he knows what she thinks of Delta Species, and after seeing how she's reacted to a simple Rotom that clearly isn't going to cause any of the problems she's worried about, he's now REALLY worried about how she'll react to Orthros...

And if he can't get someone he considers a friend to at least tolerate a pokemon surrounded in paranoia, how is he going to do the same for a wider audience?

You know, instead of trying to redeem and/or re-work the imagine of Pokémon like Callem, Orthros, or Rotom, he could just adopt Ven's philosophy when it comes to them: Love and care for them with all your heart, and fuck anyone that disagrees with choice in Pokémon, or simply not give a fuck about the opinion of others. He owns an Arbok that right terrifies 80% of people/creatures , and eventually he'll own both a Kingdra and Noivern in the future, and while he would like others to treat them fair, if they don't *Shrugs* F*ck em, and keep on raising them however he prefers. He may be a Pokémon Researcher that specializes in Disobedient Pokémon and Dragon/Steel/Ghost types, but that doesn't necessary mean he's going to advocate or clear the images of all of them, and on the contrary would mostly agree with why most view such suspicious/dangerous Pokémon with contempt and fear. He just wouldn't have to like it or suffer it any longer than he should.

[Dragonstrike]

I highly, highly doubt Rotom will purposely cause trouble for the lady with the scary Gothitelle.  And Orthros isn't going to be acting threatening towards Shiva at all as long as she doesn't give him reason to be, and Nathan is going to be very, very adamant about saying Orthros isn't quite like the rest of his kind. There's plenty of material there for Orthros's presence to not be so...dividing.
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That's not quite what Nathan's goal is, @Lord Windos.  His goal is to try and show individuals of the species don't necessarily need to be feared or shunned just because the rest of their kind are.  He's by no means trying to redeem the species as a whole, just try and convince people that giving some of them a chance can be beneficial.  

With species like Kingdra, Arbok, Noivern, Tyranitar, Aggron, Charizard, etc. the problem isn't apparent unless the pokemon is raised badly as it evolves or is caught fresh from the wild.  As long as pokemon that start off only slightly disobedient are raised properly, nobody's going to bat an eye about those.  The real problem comes from the pokemon that are incredibly disobedient (3+) right from the start, such as Delta Houndour, Absol, Rotom (this one probably isn't quite as bad though because Zamboni's got his), Pinsir, Sneasel, Voltorb, Onix, etc.

Reworking their entire image as a species is madness. That would require a much larger effort and a lot more time.  Showing that they aren't all monsters personality wise is not. I think that's something Ventus could understand, no?

[Lord Windos]

That's not quite what Nathan's goal is, @Lord Windos.  His goal is to try and show individuals of the species don't necessarily need to be feared or shunned just because the rest of their kind are.  He's by no means trying to redeem the species as a whole, just try and convince people that giving some of them a chance can be beneficial.  
(...)
Reworking their entire image as a species is madness.  That would require a much larger effort and a lot more time.  Showing that they aren't all monsters personality wise is not.  I think that's something Ventus could understand, no?

Problem is, neither of our characters would desire to give Orthros a chance in the first place, due to their own hang ups and experience with its ilk and much, much prefer doing without it them trying to acknowledge as anything other than 'Nathan's Pokémon'. The very best you can expect for both Ventus and Shiva to treat Orthros is with VERY VERY grudging tolerance whenever he's out and about, or to simply shun/ignore it altogether whenever they are by the boy's side. Its forever tainted/untrustworthy/rightfully terrifying/easy hate target in their eyes , and will cause them to negatively modify their behavior around the dog accordingly based on those perceptions, no matter how hard Nate works to prove otherwise or positive evidence is presented for its case.

Essentially, its going to be like scaling a sheer, jagged, vertical 1 Km tall Cliffside to make the mutant mutt actually likable/non-provactive in Ventus and Shiva's eyes. Might be best to not try and please them and keep training/caring for Orthros regardless and ignore of their input, as I doubt it will be everything but good. Our character will eventually get used to the demon dog and rekindle their friendship towards you after the reveal....hopefully.
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That is an admirable goal that Ventus could get behind in most cases, as with Callam and Rotom, but with something like Orthros/Pinsir/Skunktank Line, his own history with them, his naturally paranoid, ruthless, and highly superstitious nature, and his experience as a Pokémon Researcher prevent him from opening his heart towards them. It take a miracle or something equally unlikely for him to consider anything less than menaces to society that need to be put down or locked away in a dark hole, so the chances of that happening are....slim. By all means keep at it, though, and my chara will no doubt support him in his endevour if not asked to stand up for Pokémon he explicitly hates/fears!

[Dragonstrike]

Spoiler

Problem is, neither of our characters would desire to give Orthros a chance in the first place, due to their own hang ups and experience with its ilk and much, much prefer doing without it them trying to acknowledge as anything other than 'Nathan's Pokémon'. The very best you can expect for both Ventus and Shiva to treat Orthros is with VERY VERY grudging tolerance whenever he's out and about, or to simply shun/ignore it altogether whenever they are by the boy's side. Its forever tainted/untrustworthy/rightfully terrifying/easy hate target in their eyes , and will cause them to negatively modify their behavior around the dog accordingly based on those perceptions, no matter how hard Nate works to prove otherwise or positive evidence is presented for its case.

Essentially, its going to be like scaling a sheer, jagged, vertical 1 Km tall Cliffside to make the mutant mutt actually likable/non-provactive in Ventus and Shiva's eyes. Might be best to not try and please them and keep training/caring for Orthros regardless and ignore of their input, as I doubt it will be everything but good. Our character will eventually get used to the demon dog and rekindle their friendship towards you after the reveal....hopefully.
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That is an admirable goal that Ventus could get behind in most cases, as with Callam and Rotom, but with something like Orthros/Pinsir/Skunktank Line, his own history with them, his naturally paranoid, ruthless, and highly superstitious nature, and his experience as a Pokémon Researcher prevent him from opening his heart towards them. It take a miracle or something equally unlikely for him to consider anything less than menaces to society that need to be put down or locked away in a dark hole, so the chances of that happening are....slim. By all means keep at it, though, and my chara will no doubt support him in his endevour if not asked to stand up for Pokémon he explicitly hates/fears!

The fact that Nathan didn't force Orthros to come with him and he stayed this entire time should speak volumes by itself, I'm sure.  Nathan's going to keep training Orthros because of that alone.  The dog WANTS to be there, and Nathan's going to make sure everyone knows that, no matter how many times he has to say it.  The real problem there was that Mega Delta Houndoom, the pack leader.  And Nathan's got some plans for later concerning that if what I'm thinking of trying will work...

And like I've stated before, since Orthros has no reason to dislike Shiva (assuming she doesn't give him one), he should be very friendly towards her and her pokemon.  That should help with Orthros's image, I'm sure.

I want the reveal to Shiva to go as smoothly as possible, but it's just getting harder and harder for Nathan to even start it in the first place...once it's done, though, there's no need to worry about the dog as long as everyone at least tolerates it (Nathan isn't going to stand for any aggression towards the dog, period).  Orthros will be out and about, and everyone is just going to have to get used to him being around, and eventually come to terms with the fact that he's not the 'malicious monstrosity' his former pack leader was.

I feel like a broken record player...I've said all of this so many times already...I'm not asking nor expecting Shiva and Ventus to accept Orthros right away, I'm trying to give them enough reasons to get over their initial bias at least a little bit and tolerate the dog enough for the development to happen and allow Nathan to prove with a very, very, very good example that not all dangerous pokemon need be feared and/or shunned as a whole. Calam's the other big one, but it's not as big a deal since Absol only have a bad rep with most of Creshire.
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Skuntank only has 2 disobedience, so that's not a great example of anything but Ventus's personal bias.  And considering that Water Scimitar's Pinir wasn't the aggressor in Ventus and Shiva's case (just in Nathan's, and even then, the bug showed it wasn't overly cruel by letting Princess go.  And I know Ventus heard that when Nathan said that earlier), that's a REALLY bad example for Ventus to be using. Particularly since it was a trainer owned Mega Pinsir (which is already proof enough that Pinsir can be valuable companions instead of just aggressive bugs), not a wild one.

Neither of those specific cases are something Nathan would bring up in his arguments if there was no need to.

[PhantomUnderYourDesk]

Shiva has her beliefs. And own experiences. Just like she would have to get used to that demondog nearby, Nathan would have to get used that some people aren't eager to rethink due to those beliefs/experiences. Orthros is a dreamdemon for her that's threath she somewhat lured to herself by the instant fascination of the the arcane - plus they were chasing her Espurr. Would you screw those experiences just because a friend is proving that there's nothing to fear? Even friends have a right to disagree with their friend. Arguments occur. Naturally. As for Ven, I can't remember that Nathan ever cared what he may think of him.

She won't be agressive towards Orthros. It'll be more like fear and a desire to keep her distance towards both Orthros and Calam. Yes, remember how Shiva once said something like "You still have him outside his Pokeball?" If the dog will be friendly towards her, fine, but it might never go above friendly coexistance. I have nothing outta-chara against 'being included in the pack', but it just sounds so weird for Shiva in-chara to be fine with that too - She's busy enough with her own stuff and development. Nathan can prove his points about how the species doesn't need to be feared etc., but it's simply that it won't cause Ven and Shiva to rethink due to their experiences with the species. Heart will probably love that Deltadog in return.

[PhantomUnderYourDesk]

Go on and reveal Orthros to her at the evening of the current in-game day and we'll be done with that, @Dragonstrike. She needs to burrow Porygon-Z from Nathan anyway and return it at evening, so there's a trigger for that.

[Lord Windos]

Ventus was bloody near killed by that Stuntank, so bias or not that is a preeetty good reason to despise the fuck out of the species line, and he hates Pinsir more for the threat they posed to you at first than being a Pinsir, but that evolved to outright hating the entire species overtime. Mega Pinsir is a good argument point, though!

Shiva going to treat it with fear at best and Ice Cold Hatred at worst in the beginning, and Ven will be right there by her side to protect them and reinforce those beliefs, especially if Orthros reacts negatively to my chara for his past actions.

I've been repeating myself quite the many time on this issue as well, and I'm rather tired of it to be honest, so let me be rather up front and give the definitive statement concerning my chara side in the argument: Ventus will NEVER like or accept Orthros in any way, shape, or form no matter WHAT happens. No matter how hard Nathan tries to prove otherwise, Orthros will always be a monster, fiend, demon, and abomination in my character's eyes, and he'll make those sentiments known clear and upfront from the get go to the boy to forever dissuade him of the notation to make him like their dog. There will be no positive development or coming to like the dog in Ven's eyes, and the only inch he's going to give it is the fact that its owned by Nathan.

 The only reasons tolerance is even on the table is because of DM fait, that grudging acknowledgment of your chara ability as a training in this regard, and not starting a shitstorm that would tear the group apart at its seems and scatter our charas to the four winds. OOC I don't mind the Delta Houndour myself much, but the sheer awfulness and trauma it'll inflict on Ventus/Shiva is just.....bad. Nathan knows this will not end well no matter what way he introduces the topic, and yet he would still force the mutt on them despite the hugely negative consequence it poses for their friendships with each. Finally, my character would normally agree with the point the boy is trying to make, but consider the Delta Houndour and its kind so inherently monsterous/horrible that they don't deserve anything less than fear and hatred. In Ven's eyes, they are the justified exception, and that lumping them in with other dangerous Pokémon would do a grave disservice at best....

[Dragonstrike]

Go on and reveal Orthros to her at the evening of the current in-game day and we'll be done with that, @Dragonstrike. She needs to burrow Porygon-Z from Nathan anyway and return it at evening, so there's a trigger for that.

Alright.  PM incoming.

Spoiler

Ventus was bloody near killed by that Stuntank, so bias or not that is a preeetty good reason to despise the fuck out of the species line, and he hates Pinsir more for the threat they posed to you at first than being a Pinsir, but that evolved to outright hating the entire species overtime. Mega Pinsir is a good argument point, though!

Shiva going to treat it with fear at best and Ice Cold Hatred at worst in the beginning, and Ven will be right there by her side to protect them and reinforce those beliefs, especially if Orthros reacts negatively to my chara for his past actions.

I've been repeating myself quite the many time on this issue as well, and I'm rather tired of it to be honest, so let me be rather up front and give the definitive statement concerning my chara side in the argument: Ventus will NEVER like or accept Orthros in any way, shape, or form no matter WHAT happens. No matter how hard Nathan tries to prove otherwise, Orthros will always be a monster, fiend, demon, and abomination in my character's eyes, and he'll make those sentiments known clear and upfront from the get go to the boy to forever dissuade him of the notation to make him like their dog. There will be no positive development or coming to like the dog in Ven's eyes, and the only inch he's going to give it is the fact that its owned by Nathan.

 The only reasons tolerance is even on the table is because of DM fait, that grudging acknowledgment of your chara ability as a training in this regard, and not starting a shitstorm that would tear the group apart at its seems and scatter our charas to the four winds. OOC I don't mind the Delta Houndour myself much, but the sheer awfulness and trauma it'll inflict on Ventus/Shiva is just.....bad. Nathan knows this will not end well no matter what way he introduces the topic, and yet he would still force the mutt on them despite the hugely negative consequence it poses for their friendships with each. Finally, my character would normally agree with the point the boy is trying to make, but consider the Delta Houndour and its kind so inherently monsterous/horrible that they don't deserve anything less than fear and hatred. In Ven's eyes, they are the justified exception, and that lumping them in with other dangerous Pokémon would do a grave disservice at best....

- Why?  We've only encountered the one Pinsir so far.  I don't see any reasonable justification for that.

- Nathan will never ask Ventus to change his opinion on Skuntank.  I don't expect the species to ever come up IC in these discussions unless Ventus brings it up.

- Don't expect Orthros to ever like Ventus in return while he believes that, then.

- If Nathan could avoid revealing Orthros to them, he would.  But with how much the species stands out, a reveal would be inevitable. He has no choice in the matter as long as he wants to use Orthros.  Though I do wonder how Ventus would react to what Nathan's planning to do later on with Orthros (assuming it works)...

- Considering Ventus already knows about Orthros and has quite clearly expressed his distaste a few times without even meeting the dog first (close-minded thinking at its finest...), I don't even know if Nathan will want Ventus present for the reveal to Shiva.