[Meta Thread] Pokerole Mystery Dungeon: Primal Shadows

[Spiritmon]

I also done with my actions. If I go decide syphon some Aura, I would need to do some Stealth check or I can pretend to see the injuries of the other Pokemon to syphon their Auras?

[Dragonstrike]

I also done with my actions. If I go decide syphon some Aura, I would need to do some Stealth check or I can pretend to see the injuries of the other Pokemon to syphon their Auras?

That'll partially depend on what happens next.

[no one]

I mean... You can get cross, but I'm gonna keep doing it, and I'll keep encouraging Phantom to do so. I doubt Dragon's making this campaign so hard that we can't afford to do that. I won't ask you to get Pyra to do the same though. Personal choice in the end.

[Dragonstrike]

I've finished editing the indicated post and made a new one in response to Spiritmon's, so everyone is now free to continue posting in the game thread.

Just to be clear, Conkeldurr indicated that the path that leads to the Hidden Mine is around the bend that leads to the upper left corner of the current tile.

[Dragonstrike]

Speaking of keeping things clear, let me summarize what just happened as I understand it.

- After being beaten, Conkeldurr made a statement to indicate how resolved he is to see through his task

- Pyra, set on being vengeful, interprets said statement as Conkeldurr making some kind of request and resolves to attack him again so that he can't get back up again

- the vague statement from Pyra plus her prior behavior in past encounters results in several characters assuming that she intends to kill Conkeldurr, resulting in sudden conflict among the party's members

- Marcus attempts to dissuade Pyra by illustrating the gravity of the situation (the part that I have edited to be a bit more tame now)

- Pyra doesn't understand and/or agree and makes some remarks that would probably land her in hot water with more than a few characters, and Kogeki sides with her (the part that has been deleted)

- I pause the game so we can discuss this OOC in the meta thread and prevent it from escalating further, and we discover that there was a miscommunication in what actions Pyra intended to take

-------------------------------------------------------------

In short, this situation could have likely been avoided if Pyra had been a little clearer with stating that she wished to KO Conkedlurr, not kill him.

I do not want to make retcons a regular thing when characters screw up and it escalates conflicts among the party members and key NPCs, so I make no guarantees that retcons (minor or otherwise) will be an option if another situation like this pops up.

To also be clear on this: if the conflict purely involves the party, then revising posted statements to resolve problems amongst yourselves is perfectly fine for the most part.  If the GM's posts start getting involved like they were this time, though, that's a different matter entirely.  In both cases, though, it's easier to make an effort to not create said problems in the first place.  Please keep that in mind as we continue the game.

[Lord Windos]

I mean... You can get cross, but I'm gonna keep doing it, and I'll keep encouraging Phantom to do so. I doubt Dragon's making this campaign so hard that we can't afford to do that. I won't ask you to get Pyra to do the same though. Personal choice in the end.

* Angry sighing* This is EXACTLY the sort of stuff that not only upsets me, but makes me want to but heads : disrespect and disregard . You don’t CARE enough about my stances and bull on ahead, yet expect me to treat your own any better? Why should I not do the same as you or similar, having Pyra constantly interfering with any sort of well meaning gesture to enemies and start trying to discourage everyone from following Dax’s example? 

This campaign is easy now, but that doesn’t mean it will always be so, or that it’s okay to be frivolous with Items that are SUPPOSED to be used to help the team out in dire straights. That is my stance, in the end. , and hopefully you’ll care more about it in the future. 

I have more to say about this, but not now. Need to get back to work, so I’m putting a pin in this discussion.

[Spiritmon]

I mean... You can get cross, but I'm gonna keep doing it, and I'll keep encouraging Phantom to do so. I doubt Dragon's making this campaign so hard that we can't afford to do that. I won't ask you to get Pyra to do the same though. Personal choice in the end.

Please. Stop. All this discussion was been enough.

Listen, and I will say this only once: They attack us first. It's okay to feel conflicted about this sort of thing, but we can't such situation make each one of us use moves against each other. Be IC and OOC. 

Its okay to disagree with certain decisions each character make, but let me tell you something: Pyra help our characters countless times. And whatever she do is on the name to protect and maintain our group safety. Antagonize her, or Windos it's to much already.

Its a little to much attack a enemy who barely can do something? Maybe. But you think Conk or his group would show the same treatment? Don't think so.

Besides, each character is free to do what he wants. I may sound a bit...hypocrite, based in the way I treat Dragonstrike character back in SK, but little by little I learned a lesson: I no in place to dictate someone actions.

We will do mistakes and try to learn from them. If Windos or my characters decide to a more dubious path, refrain to fly towards our necks in the meta thread okay?

So please, don't that "encourage Phantom do the same" thing okay? Let's put a rock under that topic and continue our way, alright?

[Dragonstrike]

I doubt there's any need to 'encourage Phantom to do the same' anyways.  She has always played her characters how she thinks they should be played, and I doubt that is going to change any time soon.

This discussion is starting to spill OOC a little.  Watch what you type carefully.

What I will say concerning this is that this game is very much teamwork based, and playing characters with opposite alignments is a tricky balancing act.  It can make for some wonderful storytelling, but there will inevitably be moments where those party members are at odds with each other.

Remember that everyone here is working towards a common goal, and that you won't reach it if you vehemently disagree on every path you need to take to get there.  Play your characters how you think they should be played, but try to make an effort to work together as a team, even if it's only tolerating each other.

Oh, and also remember that it's far easier to create a problem than it is to fix one.  Negative actions are far more likely to have negative consequences, both IC and OOC.  Do try to solve more problems than you create if you can.

If you need an example of this kind of 'opposite alignments party' working decently well, I'd recommend looking at High Rollers's Curse of Strahd DnD campaign, where some initially good characters turn evil due to circumstances mostly outside of their control.  It causes a lot of problems within the party when it happens, and even threatens to tear it apart when certain events happen.  The players all have an understanding OOC, however, and they're able to continue playing the game despite the growing mistrust IC.

[no one]

I think the discussion needs to end too. I'll RP in a way that I enjoy, and everyone should do the same. Not gonna go out of my way to pick fights.

[Lord Windos]

I doubt there's any need to 'encourage Phantom to do the same' anyways.  She has always played her characters how she thinks they should be played, and I doubt that is going to change any time soon.

This discussion is starting to spill OOC a little.  Watch what you type carefully.

What I will say concerning this is that this game is very much teamwork based, and playing characters with opposite alignments is a tricky balancing act.  It can make for some wonderful storytelling, but there will inevitably be moments where those party members are at odds with each other.

Remember that everyone here is working towards a common goal, and that you won't reach it if you vehemently disagree on every path you need to take to get there.  Play your characters how you think they should be played, but try to make an effort to work together as a team, even if it's only tolerating each other.

Oh, and also remember that it's far easier to create a problem than it is to fix one.  Negative actions are far more likely to have negative consequences, both IC and OOC.  Do try to solve more problems than you create if you can.
(...)

Alright, I'm FINALLY off work and have had a chance to cool down and process everything, so let me get to cracking back at these posts!

Yeap, Phantom's very true to their characters, to the point of it being sometimes problematic to get them to change their mind after they've committed to a action or plan without a lot of haggling, begging, or, in the most dire circumstance, applying some leverage against them IC.  As I've implied most of the time I don't have a problem with how they do things, but when it starts to prevent me from doing stuff or makes things awkward/difficult is when I start to get headaches of dread. Sometimes I wish we could be more willing to divorce ourselves from our characters to resolve things here and allow for some OOCness in the Game Thread, but alas that is an uphill battle it seems.

Completely agree with you there, mate! Heck, I knew exactly what I was getting into when I was making Pyra the way she was, and that has been reflected in the most part in her current characterization, motivations, and restraints. I acknowledged that playing an 'Evil' / amoral / not wholely 'good' character would force limitations upon me in my choice and actions (or how I do them) , and have been mostly content at repeatedly being shot down, distrusted, and put under watch IC and occasionally OOC when she starts 'towing the line' , so to speak. I've learnt well and true from the various fiascos from Iron's campaign that substained drama just doesn't work out well for everyone and especially the most vocal, either because it creates divisions, makes you out to be the bad guy, and just causes a bunch of unnecessary grief. That, and sometimes you have to compromise or give up when you don't want to in order to make peace, when no good agreements can be reached, or when things end up being aligned against you - or 'eat a **** sandwich' to put bluntly.

So yeah, I ain't TRYING to be an idiot or intentionally aggravating with ANYONE just yet , and have in fact trying to be on my best behavior and work with everyone for the most part despite the pushback I get for whenever Pyra acts too devilishly AND whenever I make contentious plans. I'm not out to ruin anyone's fun here, and want to help make a great experience in spite of Pyra being odd , developing her into someone that can either embrace the 'regular' conventions or learns how to fake it enough to be able to florish and truly enjoy being a fully trusted member of the group.

However, there will be points where I draw a line and not be cowed, so I'm not exactly going to let anyone always get their way without fuss if I end up disagreeing with them about something, so keep that in mind too. Of course I'm fully aware that said moments will likely spell disastrously or poorly for me IC or OOC, seeing as that is the trend so far in whatever matter I stake myself in, but I can't let that stop me from standing up for what I think is right or fight back against what I think is wrong. I can only hope cooler heads will prevail in those situations and that we can resolve things at least somewhat amicably, and if not.....well, as they say 'Expect the best, plan for the worst.' 

Spoiler

In short, this situation could have likely been avoided if Pyra had been a little clearer with stating that she wished to KO Conkedlurr, not kill him.

I do not want to make retcons a regular thing when characters screw up and it escalates conflicts among the party members and key NPCs, so I make no guarantees that retcons (minor or otherwise) will be an option if another situation like this pops up.

To also be clear on this: if the conflict purely involves the party, then revising posted statements to resolve problems amongst yourselves is perfectly fine for the most part.  If the GM's posts start getting involved like they were this time, though, that's a different matter entirely.  In both cases, though, it's easier to make an effort to not create said problems in the first place.  Please keep that in mind as we continue the game.

Hey, I will fully own up to me and Pyra not being clear with our intentions, and how it lead to The Meltdown, but it isn't entirely my fault that it happened in the first place. Marcus jumping the gun and threatening her and by association her Team didn't exactly make it easy for her not to lash out against him, after all. 

No problem. I'm not too keen on retcons too unless they are absolutely necessary to keep things from derailing the entire plot or spelling the end for a character, since they set a bad president if they are constantly used to fix things when foresight and a little OOC discussion would've prevent it (or outright PMs to you, if necessary). Let's try to work things out in the Meta Thread first before we start firing shots at each other in the Game Thread, or at least keep those moments self contained enough so that it doesn't require your intervention, alright mates?

Related to this topic, I do have something to bring up that bothered me somewhat in the Game Thread: You having Karen and Marcus prevent Pyra from trying to dissuade Kee from healing Forrestress. I have never been too keen when a DM blocks a player from taking action or interacting with another player (IC or OOC) unless its absolutely necessary to prevent or stop utter shitshows OR they're completely transparent about WHY they want to stop you, and that moment right that smacks to me of such shenanigans. I didn't like it too much when Iron did it in his game to 'resolve' conflicts or herd us along, and I don't like it here either. Let us play your game a little more freely until it can't be for some reason that's clearly explained, in other words. At the very least you in that situation you could have waited until Kee/Phantom had a chance to respond and see what Pyra does before having the NPCs 'weigh in' on the matter, even if you think its a forgone conclusion.

Here, for example, of what I would've done if Kee rejected her advice WITHOUT Karen and Marcus stepping in to stop her from arguing in the first place: either have her simply accept it begrudgingly and let it happen, OR offer the alternative of Karen's Life Dew as the low cost alternative with some measure of reluctant exasperation (since she's done it before, to her continued displeasure and confusion/vexation). Heck, I could probably still have her suggest the later despite their interference if you and Phantom would allow it, as I rather have Karen spend a Will Point healing Forrestress and one other Pokemon (a more personal cost that doesn't have a high potential of screwing up the group later) up then give up one of the precious few Items we brought into the MD that costed us Poke and Inventory Space. 


And that's everything I got to say about this fiasco, other than a general message for everyone - you don't have to always be generous or free giving to have your characters be good, especially when you can find other ways to express their goodness. Call me a stingy, paranoid miser, but I want to keep our resources (and they are OUR resources in a MD, since we're not striking out on our own or hording them for only ourselves [or at least I hope not....]) WITHIN the group to help us out when need be unless they're being used for some clear purpose we can all agree upon (Like recruiting Wild Pokemon, or greasing the wheels of Diplomacy when it hasn't yet failed, for example). A simple Medicial Check to ease their pain a bit or finding alternative means of 'making up' and helping a wounded former enemy out (Like Life Dewing them) does well enough to 'prove' and demonstrate your chara's goodness, me thinks. But hey, that's just my opinion here. As always, take it as you may, though do try to be respectful about it if you disagree, please.

I think the discussion needs to end too. I'll RP in a way that I enjoy, and everyone should do the same. Not gonna go out of my way to pick fights.

You're avoiding the points I made, but fine, I'll drop it this time. 


@Spiritmon : Thank you for standing up for me and Pyra, mate, and I do agree with you on the whole 'don't try and stick us for playing 'bad' characters' ! However, you don't have to try to take up my arguments for me or get into ones for my shake (unless I ask for your support), and in fact I rather you not in most cases. The more people involved in one, the greater the likelihood it'll spiral out of control or get off topic quickly, after all. Something we well learned in our time with the Skull Ruins campaign, so let's try to avoid repeating history here, shall we?